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<blockquote data-quote="PTHoorah" data-source="post: 5860915" data-attributes="member: 6691226">Since it seems that most people agree there should be some powers/maneuvers for martial characters (or tricks for thieves), I thought it might be helpful to summarize the ideas that have been thrown around, so they can be discussed/debated. If I didn't properly summarize an idea, or missed one, sorry. I didn't reread the dozen proceeding pages. 1. Tiered/Combo Attacks: A successful attack marks/engages (term?) the target. Follow on hits allow the player to choose from a list of options, with the options getting increasingly better as the hit sequence progresses. (So three hits in a row unlocks better options, four hits even better, etc.) &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: A. Do the options need to be picked before the attack roll?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Can other players pile on? (So if Fighter A hits, can Fighter B attack with an option on a hit? If B misses, does A then lose his bonus?)2. Stamina Points/Exertion Points: Characters get X many points and can use those points to attempt maneuvers.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: A. What determines X? Race, class, attributes?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B. How do characters get SP/EP back?3. AC Plus X: If a character beats the target's AC (or other defense) by a certain amount X, the character gets to use a power/make a maneuver. If the character only beats the AC, he gets to roll damage as normal. &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: A. Do the options need to be picked before the attack roll?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Will maneuvers have different X values?4. High Roller: if the character rolls above a number on attack roll, he gets to pick an attack option. (So, 16-18 might be one set of maneuvers, 19 might be another set, and 20 would be crits.)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: A. Can players pick to use an option from a lower roll's list?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Does the player have to pick the option before the roll, and then the roll determines if it activates? (If the AC is beat, then damage as normal.)5. Stance High Roller: The character declares an at-will stance, and then if the character rolls above a certain number on the attack roll, a pre-determined maneuver activates, in theme with that stance. (Again, a 16-18 might activate one maneuver, while a 19 could activate another.)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: Can a player use a maneuver from a lower roll?6. Power Points. (I apologize, I forget what the poster's term for this was.) When an attack roll beats the AC of a target, the character gains PP equal to the difference. The character can then use the PP to attempt maneuvers/powers. &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - For discussion: A. Do the PP have to be used on the target that the character gained them from?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Do they collect from encounter to encounter? Or, when do they reset?&nbsp;&nbsp; My thoughts: I think all the options have merit, because they eliminate the straight AEDU of 4e and the maneuvers are too difficult (or require lots of feats to be good) of 3e. (Disclaimer, I haven't played 3e, but reading here that sounds like a regular complaint.) All the options limit how often maneuvers/powers will happen in an encounter, without outright saying it can only be done once (or twice). I also think some of the systems could be layered&nbsp; - so maybe all characters could use High Roller or AC Plus X, but only martial characters would have Stance High Roller. My preference: In general, I favor a system where powers are picked, then an attack roll is made. I think rolling then seeing what you can do is very &quot;gamey&quot; and would reduce roll playing and table talk. (I want the player to say, &quot;I attack and try to push the orc into the fire.&quot; Then roll. Then the DM to tell the player what happens. Not: The player says, &quot;I attack.&quot; Then roll. Then say, &quot;Okay, I rolled high enough to push him into the fire, so I do.&quot;) Specifically, I'd like a system where basic maneuvers required an AC Plus X, but &quot;powers&quot; (the burst attacks, or cleave, or 3[w] attacks) would use EP/SP and only martial characters could use them. And Stance High Roller could work in this system too.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="PTHoorah, post: 5860915, member: 6691226"] Since it seems that most people agree there should be some powers/maneuvers for martial characters (or tricks for thieves), I thought it might be helpful to summarize the ideas that have been thrown around, so they can be discussed/debated. If I didn't properly summarize an idea, or missed one, sorry. I didn't reread the dozen proceeding pages. 1. Tiered/Combo Attacks: A successful attack marks/engages (term?) the target. Follow on hits allow the player to choose from a list of options, with the options getting increasingly better as the hit sequence progresses. (So three hits in a row unlocks better options, four hits even better, etc.) - For discussion: A. Do the options need to be picked before the attack roll? B. Can other players pile on? (So if Fighter A hits, can Fighter B attack with an option on a hit? If B misses, does A then lose his bonus?) 2. Stamina Points/Exertion Points: Characters get X many points and can use those points to attempt maneuvers. - For discussion: A. What determines X? Race, class, attributes? B. How do characters get SP/EP back? 3. AC Plus X: If a character beats the target's AC (or other defense) by a certain amount X, the character gets to use a power/make a maneuver. If the character only beats the AC, he gets to roll damage as normal. - For discussion: A. Do the options need to be picked before the attack roll? B. Will maneuvers have different X values? 4. High Roller: if the character rolls above a number on attack roll, he gets to pick an attack option. (So, 16-18 might be one set of maneuvers, 19 might be another set, and 20 would be crits.) - For discussion: A. Can players pick to use an option from a lower roll's list? B. Does the player have to pick the option before the roll, and then the roll determines if it activates? (If the AC is beat, then damage as normal.) 5. Stance High Roller: The character declares an at-will stance, and then if the character rolls above a certain number on the attack roll, a pre-determined maneuver activates, in theme with that stance. (Again, a 16-18 might activate one maneuver, while a 19 could activate another.) - For discussion: Can a player use a maneuver from a lower roll? 6. Power Points. (I apologize, I forget what the poster's term for this was.) When an attack roll beats the AC of a target, the character gains PP equal to the difference. The character can then use the PP to attempt maneuvers/powers. - For discussion: A. Do the PP have to be used on the target that the character gained them from? B. Do they collect from encounter to encounter? Or, when do they reset? My thoughts: I think all the options have merit, because they eliminate the straight AEDU of 4e and the maneuvers are too difficult (or require lots of feats to be good) of 3e. (Disclaimer, I haven't played 3e, but reading here that sounds like a regular complaint.) All the options limit how often maneuvers/powers will happen in an encounter, without outright saying it can only be done once (or twice). I also think some of the systems could be layered - so maybe all characters could use High Roller or AC Plus X, but only martial characters would have Stance High Roller. My preference: In general, I favor a system where powers are picked, then an attack roll is made. I think rolling then seeing what you can do is very "gamey" and would reduce roll playing and table talk. (I want the player to say, "I attack and try to push the orc into the fire." Then roll. Then the DM to tell the player what happens. Not: The player says, "I attack." Then roll. Then say, "Okay, I rolled high enough to push him into the fire, so I do.") Specifically, I'd like a system where basic maneuvers required an AC Plus X, but "powers" (the burst attacks, or cleave, or 3[w] attacks) would use EP/SP and only martial characters could use them. And Stance High Roller could work in this system too. [/QUOTE]

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