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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5861201" data-attributes="member: 1544">The 'all or nothing'/'Damage or effect' approach of 3E limits the usefulness of special attacks. The 'powers or nothing' approach of 4E provides similar problems. I want to see something that actually provides options, all of the time, but have those options balanced.Let's start by considering which effects or conditions should a martial type character be able to inflict?Blinded Difficult, it's either the sand in the eyes trick or direct damage to the eyes. Personally I think sand in the eyes is more of a -2 to attack type situation and specific damage to the body isn't the way DND Hit Points work.Dazed/Stunned No, I see it as more of a hit points thing. I accept dazed/stunned from spells, but not from martial sources.Deafened Umm, no, can't think of a sensible way for a martial type to inflict this.Dominated No.Immobilized 2 options, pinned to the ground somehow (arrow through foot), or held/grappled.Marked YepPetrified No!Prone YES, this is probably one of the most important ones to include.Restrained Much like immobilized.Slowed I don't really buy it. Use caltrops if you like.Weakened Again, I don't buy it.Disarmed Needs layers, and ways to stop it being used constantly.Pushed/Pulled/Slid Like trip, these are highly important.Deal extra damage Another important one. 1[W] 2[W] 3[W] was a better system than 3e's power attack for a flat +5 damage.+X to ally's defense Sure no problem. Would last for 1 round.-X to target's defense Sure no problem. Would last for 1 round.Combat advantage Again, no problem, would last for 1 round.Sunder Can be battle-winningly good, so it seriously needs to be limited. Perhaps only on criticals.So, once we rule out the ridiculous ones, we're left looking for sensible ways of making those effects obtainable. I'll focus on Prone and Pushed here.Prone Requirements: * The creature must have 'legs' and be standing. * A creature with more than X 'legs' cannot be knocked prone (centipede, I'm looking at you)There are two options for knocking an opponent prone - Unarmed TripUse your (base) attack bonus vs target's Reflex/Dexterity defense. If successful, you knock him prone and deal no damage.Armed TripUse your weapon attack bonus -5 vs target's AC AND Reflex/Dexterity defense. If you exceed AC, you deal damage as normal. If you exceed Reflex, you knock the target prone. If you exceed both, apply both effects.Feats can be purchased to reduces the attack penalty of Armed Trip. 1 feat per reduction, limited at -3 to attack.Feats can be purchased to deal damage with an Unarmed Trip - this is not weapon damage. Monks get a bonus to this damage.Additionally; terrain would have modifiers for Trip. Such as, "If target is in a square of difficult terrain, they have a -2 penalty to Reflex/Dexterity defense."Pushed Requirements:* There must be a valid space to move into. i.e. not a wall.There are two options for pushing your opponent -Unarmed PushThis is your bull rush option. Also your shield bash option. The objective is to move the target, not to do (significant) damage. Additional requirement; Target can only be 1 size larger (as usual).Use your base attack bonus vs target's Fortitude/Strength defense. If you succeed, you push the target X squares. I'm not sure if X should be 1d4, or if it should be 1 square for every 2 points you beat the target's defense by. Either way, it shouldn't be further than you can move. Movement must be in a straight line, but the attacker chooses the direction (not backwards obviously).Armed PushThis is your swashbuckling option. You make a given square too dangerous to stand in, so the opponent will move. Additional requirement; Cannot be done without holding a weapon, unless your opponent is also weaponless (or you're a monk).Use your weapon attack bonus vs target's AC and (undecided) defense. If you exceed AC, you deal damage. If you exceed the other defense, you force the target to move 1 square (they choose the direction).Alternatively; Use your weapon attack bonus vs target's AC. If successful, you deal half damage and you force the target to move 1 square (they choose the direction). The target has the choice of staying put, but will take double damage if he does so. (Most likely used when you're trying push him off a cliff)I'm not sure which of those two I like more.Feats can be purchased to Unarmed Push further.Feats can be purchased to add (non weapon) damage to an Unarmed Push.Feats can be purchased to make 2 or 3 squares unavailable, so that you can better control your target's movement.Feats can be purchased to do 3/4 or triple damage with an Armed Push (second version).---I'm sure similar mechanics can be created for the other effects.Pull would have 'lure' which would be an 'attack' against the opponents Int or Wis defense. Kind of like a bluff.Immobilized/Restrained/Grabbed/Grappled would have a non damage option for heavily restraining the target, and a partially restrained, but you get to deal damage option.Marked could stay pretty much as-is.Buffs and Debuffs could also have a two option deal - if you deal damage to the target, you can apply a -2. If you forgo damage, you can apply a -5 or -6.Combat advantage can be provided in a number of ways: flanking, 'staggering' (ala Armed Trip), and just plain 'menacing' (ala Armed Push). i.e. you can forgo the actual Trip or Push part to provide your allies with combat advantage against that target.Disarm can also use the multiple options mechanic - deal no damage, completely disarm. Deal damage, force use of a minor action to regain hold of weapon. Also, Deal damage, but cause -2 to attack rolls.As above, each of these things can have feats that increase the effectiveness, or reduce the penalty. Also, there may be feats that let you do two things at once - Trip AND Push, but no damage.Sunder might actually be a feat of Disarm - gives you the option to potentially break the weapon rather than just making the target drop the weapon.Everyone can use these abilities, all of the time, but martial characters (through having a strong attack rating) are always going to be better at them. Martial characters are also more likely to spend feats on these abilities than spell casters.Naturally, the numbers presented above are a 'best guess' and would be subject to balancing.The CMB mechanic of Pathfinder is a nice idea, but it presupposes that all effects are equally powerful. I expect each special attack to end up with its own level of difficulty, without straying too far from d20+-X vs Defense mechanic.I only see two potential problems with my system:1) It has to be carefully balanced so that performing 'damage + effect' attacks is useful without being something you do every turn. It also has to be balanced so that 'effect only' is always a valid option. i.e. 'damage + effect' is always less likely to work than 'effect only'. (See Li Shenron's post on page 11 for the reason why this is important!) 2) The combat chapter may end up being 400 pages long.So how does this fit in with spells?Spells in earlier editions tended to be 'effect only' or 'damage only'. In 4E they tend to be 'effect + damage'I see a system where spell that provide similar effects are balanced out by:A) Being vancian, and therefore daily, and also chosen at the start of the day as a guess of what spells you'll require that day.B) Being 'guaranteed' or at least easier to pull offC) Have longer lasting effects. e.g. "Prone for 3 turns minimum". D) Having effects that martial characters cannot provide, BUT being short lasting. e.g. "Dominated for 1 turn"E) Tying up spell slots with some non-combat spells tooF) Often target mental rather than physical defenses</blockquote>

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