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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5861568" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>I don't think I ever claimed otherwise, and, from my point of view, I'm debating with Hussar on opportunities for <em>more</em> awesome moments, while his rejection of another use with a penalty seems to be arguing <em>against</em> more awesome moments. Again, from where I stand.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, my point wasn't that another group did it, so it's less special. I'm saying that if "awesome" things happen <em>all the time</em>, they end up feeling "cool" instead of awesome. The sheer exposure to it on a regular basis blunts the "awesome" down a peg or two, much like overexposure to dragons or magical items makes them seem more mundane, rather than rare and wondrous.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then again, I never asked for boredom and suffering, did I? No, awesome can be broken up by cool. I don't mind suffering in between, as I think it adds to the game. I'm also looking for a deeper experience than "playing a gonzo RPG that's over-the-top EXCITING!" but we want different things out of our games.</p><p></p><p>Again, overexposure to anything will blunt its emotional impact, and those truly awesome moments are the emotional ones where people are just sit there, awesomely stunned with excitement at what just happened. Those "did that really just happen? No way!" moments. The ones that people knew beforehand would likely fail, and then they rolled that critical hit, or that natural 20, and overcame all the obstacles that were stacked against them that they were sure would overcome them, but they went for it anyways.</p><p></p><p>That's awesome. Exploiting a two-headed dragon's weakness with your weapons covered in essence of death from an Avatar of Death? Cool. Having him bite your hand off after you covered it beforehand, "just in case"? Awesome. </p><p></p><p>Crashing a ship into another ship in the middle of the night after escaping from the brig while the party fights the sailors on it? Awesome. Crashing a ship into another ship over and over again? Cool.</p><p></p><p>Defeating your former ally in an emotionally charged battle while both sides rage around you, before he permanently blinds you with a flail from a bandit leader who killed your family, and you defeat him while blind after being trained by a guy named Taklos Darkseer with the sword gifted to you by your deceased wife (all in backstory before the fight)? Awesome. Fighting someone in a battle while it rages around you? Cool.</p><p></p><p>It's a matter of odds and frequency, and how they build up the situation. I know that awesome is purely subjective, and that different people have different tolerances for it, but for me and my group, it's about those two. Cool can show up in large doses (which is why I have a group with a Hercules-like PC, a man that can actively affect Fate, and the like), but awesome, from my viewpoint, necessarily can't. It's the top tier of cool, and that necessitates it happening less often.</p><p></p><p>So, again, please don't assume what I want includes only "awesome" and "boredom and suffering". If I was going for that, you wouldn't be climbing a fire dragon and killing it with your dagger by plunging it into the base of the skull (last session). Cool is strewn about it, as is some suffering (and, from time to time, boredom, though basically from the newest player who loves combat the most). There's also a lot of other things strewn about, including curiosity, emotions, and the like.</p><p></p><p>Again, I know it's totally subjective, but I want the possibility of awesome, and for me that means it doesn't happen often. Using an ability that is unlikely to succeed but has a chance means that it could fit that bill from time to time. Thus, my discussion on an encounter power that you can use multiple times by taking a penalty; it's unlikely to happen, but it might give you an awesome moment from time to time. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5861568, member: 6668292"] I don't think I ever claimed otherwise, and, from my point of view, I'm debating with Hussar on opportunities for [I]more[/I] awesome moments, while his rejection of another use with a penalty seems to be arguing [I]against[/I] more awesome moments. Again, from where I stand. No, my point wasn't that another group did it, so it's less special. I'm saying that if "awesome" things happen [I]all the time[/I], they end up feeling "cool" instead of awesome. The sheer exposure to it on a regular basis blunts the "awesome" down a peg or two, much like overexposure to dragons or magical items makes them seem more mundane, rather than rare and wondrous. Then again, I never asked for boredom and suffering, did I? No, awesome can be broken up by cool. I don't mind suffering in between, as I think it adds to the game. I'm also looking for a deeper experience than "playing a gonzo RPG that's over-the-top EXCITING!" but we want different things out of our games. Again, overexposure to anything will blunt its emotional impact, and those truly awesome moments are the emotional ones where people are just sit there, awesomely stunned with excitement at what just happened. Those "did that really just happen? No way!" moments. The ones that people knew beforehand would likely fail, and then they rolled that critical hit, or that natural 20, and overcame all the obstacles that were stacked against them that they were sure would overcome them, but they went for it anyways. That's awesome. Exploiting a two-headed dragon's weakness with your weapons covered in essence of death from an Avatar of Death? Cool. Having him bite your hand off after you covered it beforehand, "just in case"? Awesome. Crashing a ship into another ship in the middle of the night after escaping from the brig while the party fights the sailors on it? Awesome. Crashing a ship into another ship over and over again? Cool. Defeating your former ally in an emotionally charged battle while both sides rage around you, before he permanently blinds you with a flail from a bandit leader who killed your family, and you defeat him while blind after being trained by a guy named Taklos Darkseer with the sword gifted to you by your deceased wife (all in backstory before the fight)? Awesome. Fighting someone in a battle while it rages around you? Cool. It's a matter of odds and frequency, and how they build up the situation. I know that awesome is purely subjective, and that different people have different tolerances for it, but for me and my group, it's about those two. Cool can show up in large doses (which is why I have a group with a Hercules-like PC, a man that can actively affect Fate, and the like), but awesome, from my viewpoint, necessarily can't. It's the top tier of cool, and that necessitates it happening less often. So, again, please don't assume what I want includes only "awesome" and "boredom and suffering". If I was going for that, you wouldn't be climbing a fire dragon and killing it with your dagger by plunging it into the base of the skull (last session). Cool is strewn about it, as is some suffering (and, from time to time, boredom, though basically from the newest player who loves combat the most). There's also a lot of other things strewn about, including curiosity, emotions, and the like. Again, I know it's totally subjective, but I want the possibility of awesome, and for me that means it doesn't happen often. Using an ability that is unlikely to succeed but has a chance means that it could fit that bill from time to time. Thus, my discussion on an encounter power that you can use multiple times by taking a penalty; it's unlikely to happen, but it might give you an awesome moment from time to time. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?
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