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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5866395" data-attributes="member: 42582">I basically agree with CJ on this, though probably incline a bit more towards the view that there is mild, active support for some narrative elements outside combat (eg I find the integration of many of the PC build elements into a tightly designed cosmology provides active if modest support for narrative scenario design).There are multiple features of power design that support narrativist play, in my view, but probably the most important are the ways in which they support rather than undercut scene framing that is (by traditional D&D standards) pretty forceful (even if by Forge standards it would be scene as pretty wimpy).Here is one such way: by giving each player a suite of effective resources to bring to a scene, they reduce the pressure on players to question the framing of the scene, to try and push it this way or that in order to increase the resources they have to bring to bear, and instead give players confidence that if they let the GM frame a tough scene, the players will still have the resources to deal with it without having to rely on the GM to cheat. Contrast this with, for example, 2nd ed "storytelling" or classic Dragonlance, both of which want the strong scene framing but, lacking the mechanics to support it, rely upon the players just punting ultimate control over resolution to the GM.Here is another such way: by confing the duration of effects within a scene, they enable scenes to be brought to an end without dragging on for ever, requiring minutiae of durations, bandaging of wounds, etc to be tracked.And in my view 4e has a lot of other features like this which, while not providing strong active support for narrativist play, create a game in which a fairly vanilla narrativism can flourish (vanilla both in mechancial terms, and in the fairly light and traditional nature of the themes that the game best suppots). Good examples and good analysis. And it fits with my experience. My group is very mechanics-focused - long time Rolemaster players, some former 3E players who were running some fairly complex builds, tactical wargamers/boardgamers, etc - and we want mechanics that deliver. The GM just telling the players that their PCs are hard-pressed, when the mechanical resolution of the scene is indistinguishable from the mechanical resolution of any other scene, won't do the job. They know they're hard pressed - I don't need to tell them! - when half the encounter powers have been used, they're out of dailies and APs, there're 3 surges left in a party of 5, the ranger-cleric only has 13 hp left, and there are still 3 mooncalves to take down! And they'll pull out all the stops, mechanically and creatively, just like desperate adventurers would.Or in a different context: When the sorcerer is on the flying carpet being chased by 3 wyvern-mounted hobgoblins who he knows are faster then him, and the player knows that I'm resolving it as a "4 before 3" skill challenge, and he's rolled a 3 for his two Acrobatics checks to try escaping via clever aerobatical manoeuvres, then he will have his PC unstopper a vial of pure elemental fire to find out what it does when mixed with his ordinary Blazing Starfall attack used both to try and hold off his pursuers and to try and alert the other PCs to his difficult situation. (Answer: when coupled with another 3 or thereabouts for an Arcana check, it will cause an explosion that causes damage to all involved, and that leads to the carpet crashing 50-odd squares away from the other PCs - in turn leading to excited and clever play with the timing of actions, the use of Arcanae Gate, the fighter Mightily Sprinting, etc).For me and my group, at least, this sort of thing is intense and immersive play (immersive in the sense of being immersed in the fictional situation).Anyway, these ares some of my "babies" in the 4e power system that I personally feel D&Dnext is in danger of throwing out.</blockquote>

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