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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5869154" data-attributes="member: 1544">So, you're players were enjoying it? Isn't that kind of the point of playing?I don't mean to be flippant here, nor tell you how to play; but your example struck me as DM oversight. If your players are having fun, you're on the right track. If they want a 15 minute work day, then that clearly IS a play-group thing. Also, this example strikes me as being one where the DM should have taken a moment to look at the situation with fresh eyes, and consider it from the point of view of the BBEG:"Someone keeps killing my door guards and running away? HUH, I'll show them. Put the same number of guards at the door, and then hide a dozen more in the bushes to ambush them when they attack."If that fails, he can then send another group of guards out to attack the party during the night.In other words, put some sense back into the situation. If the world is static, you're encouraging the players to use the 15 minute work day. If there's a CONSEQUENCE of the 15 minute work day behaviour, the players will alter their behaviour accordingly.Random encounters are a consequence.Time limits are a consequence.Those two things are not the sum total of potential consequences you can use.One of my favourites is "You took so long that another party came in and took all the loot". See how quickly they change their behaviour when they're denied XP or loot.You want the players to keep moving, not acting in the 15 minute work day. But at the same time, you don't want to risk ever over-challenging them. This can happen in any edition. EVEN 4E.4E didn't get rid of the 15 minute work day. It really didn't. The option is still there. The behaviour can still happen. It has only been obscured by the encounter mechanics.Take my party: we're 14th level, so we've got 3 dailies and 4 utilities each. We also play with 2 APs per milestone/extended rest.We COULD blow all our dailies and APs on the first battle, then take an extended rest. The effect would be exactly like the 15 minute work day.4th edition has done absolutely nothing to REMOVE that. The only difference is the invention of encounter powers which put players into a different mindset. The behaviour is still mechanically supported, if the players are of mind to work that way.There are two reasons why my play group doesn't do this:1) In our first 4E adventure, we got half way through, then left to rest. Someone else cleared the dungeon while we were resting2) Our DM told us as players that he doesn't want us to behave that way.3E doesn't invalidate either of those reasons.Understood. But do you understand that 4e honestly, truly doesn't work for others? Can you entertain the idea that there's an alternate system which would work for both of us? It might be a 'happy medium' or it might be an entirely different mechanic.4E didn't 'fix' 3E. It just offered an alternative.On the contrary.The 15 minute work day, by definition, is two things:1) The pattern:Wake upSpend 15 minutes preparing spells. (This is where the term comes from!)FightRest2) The intent:"We've blown all our spells, so we're just going to wait here all day then rest. Then we'll do it all over again tomorrow." If you spend 7 hours poncing about doing other stuff, then resting is actually logical, because it's now NIGHT TIME.If you travel between cities, and only get attacked once along the way, you have every right to go nova on the bad guys. If the party finds that they've reached the end of the day with only one encounter, they can count themselves lucky. The next day might not go so smoothly. That's a very different thing from intending to only spend 15 minutes of activity during the day.For what it's worth, the 15 minute work day was just as viable in 0E, 1E and 2E. It's not something that's specific to 3E.I like my earlier point so much I'll say it again:4E didn't 'fix' 3E. It just offered an alternative.This thread has been turning into more and more of an edition war. Can we please focus on suggesting fixes and alternatives, instead of arguing over things were more broken in 3E or more broken in 4E?If you feel the 15 minute work day is a problem; suggest some mechanical ways of preventing it. Encounter powers do not prevent it. They only provide players with a different mindset. You can change player mindset in many other non-mechanical ways.</blockquote>

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