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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5869993" data-attributes="member: 1544">Certainly, and I wouldn't dream of disputing that. My point was that it's still available. 4E didn't remove it. It just made it less effective, and gave the characters stuff they could do after going nova.Oddly, I've experienced the problem more since switching to 4E, than I ever did with 3E. That comes back to players and mindsets though.--------I keep coming back to the original question of this thread: What are the good bits of 4E combat, and how can we keep them without including the bad bits of 4E combat?I guess that way to answer that methodically is to first ask ourselves; What did 4E do?To that I answer the following:4E made the following improvements:1. Reduced the benefits of the 15 minute adventuring day (by reducing the ability to go 'nova', and leaving characters with some power after using dailies)2. Reduced the repetitive nature of combat (particularly when viewed round by round)3. Balanced spellcasters with martial characters4. Removed ability score altering effects (thus, less recalculation)5. Reduced 'save or suck' effects6. Reduced reliance on healing magic and clerics7. Special attacks are available through powers8. Page 42 exists to cover gaps9. Introduced minions, elites and solos10. Switched to Attack vs Defense mechanic rather than the old saving throw systemUnfortunately, each of those changes came with a flaw:1. The 15 minute work day is still possible, and non-magic daily/encounter powers offend many players2. Combat is still repetitive because you use the same powers ever battle, albeit not in the same round.3. Homogeneity of all classes offends many players by turning martial types into 'casters'.4. Introduced more effect tracking and more frequent changes in the bonuses and penalties that you need to account for.5. While you might suck for less rounds, rounds take longer (as a general rule) so you sit out for just as long. Target lockdown is still possible.6. Healing surges, shouting wounds closed and various other things are seen as issues.7. Special attacks have no clear definition outside of powers.8. Page 42 deserves/needs expanding9. Minions leave players feeling 'flat' while elites and solos often cause combat grind.10. There is less meaningful variety in spell durationThere are a few things 4E did improve, without any apparent drawbacks:* Move/Minor/Standard/Free is a good mechanic, and it's explained clearly in the book* Consistent effects and effect terminology make for less time checking books during game.Unfortunately there are also things that 4E did not improve.* Dump stats still exist, in some ways more so than before (due to attribute pairing)* The math puts more emphasis on high stats because you never improve your accuracy vs equal level creatures* You still need magic items to be viable at high level* High monster HP makes hitting with every attack more valuable - damage per round (DPR) is more important* Spells (powers) still take up a huge percentage of book space* Some attributes are still more valuable (across the board) than others. e.g. Str compared with Cha.------Now, each of you will no doubt have differing opinions over which of the above statements is important, and which is not. That is not the discussion I want to see.I want to see suggestions of how those same improvements can be made without implementing the same drawbacks. A suggestion does not mean 'this is what will be', nor does it mean 'this is what I want'. It's just brainstorming ideas. For example:To get rid of the 15 minute work day, I can immediately think of these mechanical options:* Use spell points* Use regenerating powers (by time or dice roll)* Reduce magic to be on par with physical action, but have no restriction on how many times you can use itI'm sure there are many more ways.Discuss <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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