D&D 4E 4E Combat Rounds and Perception

[Derren]

Maybe I should clarify my post a bit. I have nothing against people who go outside and smoke for a while. Normally we time that this way that the whole group makes break during that time. I just used this phrase as answer to fafhrd.

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are the players, not the rules. I made this point in a different thread some time ago and from the responses I got is looks like quite a lot, maybe even the majority of players don't start thinking what to do before it is their turn.
How often has it happened to you that the wizard player started to look at his memorized spells only after his turn began? And that is the real slowdown for combat, not complex rules. Players have time to figure out this rules when the other players take their turn.

So if you want fast combat, "train" your players to think what to do while the others act. Sure the situation on the board might change, but normally not as drastic so that a completely different action is required. Don't hoipe that simpler rules will fix make the game faster. They won't.

(Thats why I am also so against simplifying D&D combat, because the effect of that will not be as great as what some people expect).

 

[Propheous_D]

So if you want fast combat, "train" your players to think what to do while the others act. Sure the situation on the board might change, but normally not as drastic so that a completely different action is required. Don't hoipe that simpler rules will fix make the game faster. They won't.
(Thats why I am also so against simplifying D&D combat, because the effect of that will not be as great as what some people expect).

There is one argument against this point "Why do we have to train ourselves to have fun?".

The most important thing to me though is no matter how logically you wrap it, no matter how much you prove that training players makes a better experience, play goes much smoother when you have to roll less dice, have discriptions that are complete (no referencing other books), and have more structured choices.

I personally think that Full Round Actions were the biggest slowdown to 3E that ever occured. Having them removed in 4E can do nothing but speed up the play for any player.

 

[malraux]

Maybe I should clarify my post a bit. I have nothing against people who go outside and smoke for a while. Normally we time that this way that the whole group makes break during that time. I just used this phrase as answer to fafhrd.

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are the players, not the rules. I made this point in a different thread some time ago and from the responses I got is looks like quite a lot, maybe even the majority of players don't start thinking what to do before it is their turn.
How often has it happened to you that the wizard player started to look at his memorized spells only after his turn began? And that is the real slowdown for combat, not complex rules. Players have time to figure out this rules when the other players take their turn.

So if you want fast combat, "train" your players to think what to do while the others act. Sure the situation on the board might change, but normally not as drastic so that a completely different action is required. Don't hoipe that simpler rules will fix make the game faster. They won't.

(Thats why I am also so against simplifying D&D combat, because the effect of that will not be as great as what some people expect).

While I'll agree that much of the problem can be fixed by players knowing the rules well and thinking about their actions ahead of time, I think 3rd edition has a problem with presenting too many less valuable choices to decide upon. For example, deciding power attack values and then factoring that into the attack and damage calculations presents an indecisive player, or one without an experienced handle of the rules, with an overabundance of choices. Do I power attack? If yes, for how much? Now, how does that change my damage role? And all of that comes after the important choices of where to move and who to attack. Sure, savvy players just click the drop box option in DM Genie, but the melee classes are supposed to be the easy to play classes and often end up being the choice of the less savvy players.

 

[fafhrd]

In my case, the players are experienced. They're also slow. Being just another player, there isn't much I can do about it other than jawbone, but that depends entirely on them caring.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It's a viscious cycle... players get bored waiting for the others to go so their mind wanders, then their bodies wander, or they chat with others who are also waiting.

Iit takes longer for them to get back to the table and remember what they were doing. So then the other players get bored and wander, and so on.

The DM's turn doesn't help. 'cause he's got so much to do no matter how good he is it takes longer than any given player (individually, unless they're a slowpoke).

You can learn to speed it up by knowing the game, you can enforce "sit there and shut up" rules, much to everyone's annoyance. (They ARE there to have fun, right?)

Anything that can speed it all up will help keep people focused. Heck, having more options (like deciding which power to use next) will get you to think about your next turn. Keep you focused.

Having more inter-character combinations (the cleric helping the rogue) will get everyone to pay attention to what others are doing.

I think they are seriously on the right track.

Fitz

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are the players, not the rules.

Give me dedicated players, and I can run a 400 character point Champions game that has combat that will run faster than the typical Basic D&D game (from back in the day). It doesn't follow that it will be easy to get and/or train the players to be that dedicated to the system.

 

[franzel]

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are the players, not the rules.

I disagree. In my experience, they are equal factors in very long combat rounds. And the slowdown from the rules comes in two forms:

1) Rules promoting many different character actions/options combined with different, oft-increasing temporary numeric effects
2) Rules adjudications/discussions/questions

Our combat rounds typically last an hour and have gone up as high as 2.25 hours in one notably ridiculous combat situation. This is absolutely a combination of player/DM actions (and we're not wasting a ton of time here) and rules discussions/questions/adjudications.

Admittedly, some of the more egregious examples are for a 48+ level party with six party members so that just takes a while. But even for our lower-level campaigns (21-25), combat rounds usually take at least an hour unless it's just mop-up.

I believe that the rules changes that limit options, especially at very high levels, combined with standardizing numbers and having fewer numeric buff effects to keep track of, should streamline combat significantly. There will always be efficiencies to be made in the players themselves, but 4e APPEARS to be a step in the right direction from a rules perspective.

Adjudicating rules interactions with unusual one-off effects/situations will always take time; it doesn't matter what edition it is. And I don't mind if the combat takes hours, but I would like it to take more then three combat rounds (that's 18 seconds game-time for those of you keeping score at home). At least in 2e, three rounds spanned a whopping three minutes.

 

[Stalker0]

I do agree with the sentiment, but perhaps not your assessment. I know I've had fewer players sneak off for a smoke during combat in recent years, but that's usually just because they don't want to miss what happens.

And if 4e delivers on some of the promises we've seen, players won't stay tuned just to see what happens, they will also watch to see if they can affect things outside their turn.

This is one thing I love about interrupts and immediate actions. If the big dragon can act outside of its turn, the players are always worried regardless of whose initiative. If a fighter can take immediate actions to stop people moving around it, then the fighter will constantly be watching as the enemies move, looking for his chance to pounce.

 

[kennew142]

I would like to agree with Darren, to point. It has been my experience that indecisive players slow the game down significantly. The time it takes to resolve each player's actions is also really high in 3e. I haven't noticed it so much from the spell casters as I have from the the fighters with multiple attacks. I have to agree with the poster who cited full round actions as one of the worst concepts in 3e. If you have a two-weapon fighter it gets even worse.

IMC the one who takes the longest time to take his turn is me. As GM I have a lot of different characters to control. We've always preferred combats involving multiple opponents instead of one BBEG. At the levels we'r eplaying right now, it can take me a long time to resolve the actions of 5-6 NPCs, many of whom have multiple attacks in a full round action.

I can't help but think that the biggest time waster in 3e combat has to be resolving so many different actions for each character every round.

 

[hong]

The biggest slowdown for D&D combat are not complex rules but players who think they can turn of their brain till its their turn again.

I damn well want players to turn off their brain when it's not their turn. If I'm chewing scenery/bubblegum, I want an audience, not a bunch of guys figuring out which spells to use next.