D&D 4E 4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The really serious question is why do you decide to treat one scene as scripted and another not.
Players branch in a way that I didnt expect because Players arent necessarily predictable so some things get nicely elaborated NPC concepts and others need some form of improvised/quick technique not even sure why that is a question.

And there are supporting cast even in a predicted scene that might not be over elaborated that chamber maid might have had some property that made her significant in the investigation or not... the one I have a planned personality for the other I may not.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Players branch in a way that I didnt expect because Players arent necessarily predictable so some things get nicely elaborated NPC concepts and others need some form of improvised/quick technique not even sure why that is a question.

So you are suggesting that everything you plan for is tightly scripted? Do you never plan encounters where you intend to leave things up to chance and player direction? Like, "Here is an NPC here. He has this personality, and this motivation, and is initially has a friendly attitude toward strangers, as modified by a reaction check based on player appearance..."

And there are supporting cast even in a predicted scene that might not be over elaborated that chamber maid might have had some property that made her significant in the investigation or not... the one I have a planned personality for the other I may not.

Planned personality is not the same as planned reaction or action. Are you saying all NPC's with personalities you predetermine what they will do?

I find none of my plans ever survive contact with the players anyway, so I might as well leave up what is going to happen to the point it starts happening. Most of my decisions to decide by fiat that something or someone is not going to necessarily be hostile have more to do with the possibility of wrecking the fun. I'll leave it up to the PC's to initiate hostilities. Thinking back over the campaign that has consumed most of the last eight years, virtually no NPC however elaborately imagined has ended up having the relationship to the party that I imagined that they would have when I designed them and quite often I find myself rolling reaction checks that I simply would not have thought necessary because of how I'd stack things in the parties favor.
 

dave2008

Legend
4e's greatest faults were hanging on to traditional adventure design (having 60+ rooms in a dungeon are ridiculous in 4e) and being anti-fan.

I agree with those points to some extent, but I don't think that was the biggest issue. I think 4e could still be going strong today if:

1) Essentials designs had come first (then introduce the AEDU versions later)
2) Don't change anything with established campaign worlds, not a thing. Just update them to the new rules
3) Issue the PoL / Nentir Vale as a new separate campaign world.

I am not sure which one was the bigger offense, but issues 1 & 2 seemed to drive a lot of people away. They never bothered me, but they did seem to be issues for others.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
So you are suggesting that everything you plan for is tightly scripted? Do you never plan encounters where you intend to leave things up to chance and player direction? Like, "Here is an NPC here. He has this personality, and this motivation, and is initially has a friendly attitude toward strangers, as modified by a reaction check based on player appearance..."
What a pile of nonsense did I say tightly scripted you pulled that out of some orifice kindly stick it back.... I didnt use that stupid reaction table because I could roleplay the NPCs

To be clear "pre-planned significant npc doesn't mean some OCD locked down script" -- that is your invention so have fun beating on a strawman this was what I said.
I just remembered deciding using a reaction check for any pre-planned significant npc didnt much make sense somewhere around 1980

If I had pre-planned the npc then I had enough information to decide what they did without a stupid table.- But apparently you cannot how sad /sarasm.

I find none of my plans ever survive contact with the players anyway, so I might as well leave up what is going to happen to the point it starts happening. .

Here is what you just did to me --- have fun with it ---

"So everything at your table just a bloody die roll on a table and your npcs are personality stripped free drones with stock attitudes and random reactions from table and you never roleplay the NPCS how disgusting I would never want to play that way...."

Oh and sure dude I pity your players if you need a reaction table to decide what NPCs will do... how gamey it all must be.

I bet you are one of those people who die roll against yourself to "simulate" combat between NPCs too..

See how we can both play the absolutist crap.

OR instead

Planned personality is not the same as planned reaction or action. Are you saying all NPC's with personalities you predetermine what they will do? .


No it means I have enough information to decide their reaction or actions by roleplaying I do not like the simplistic table results and randomness. DM choice has more nuance and can have more contextual meaning than any table.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
What a pile of nonsense did I say tightly scripted you pulled that out of some orifice kindly stick it back.... I didnt use that stupid reaction table because I could roleplay the NPCs

To be clear "pre-planned significant npc doesn't mean some OCD locked down script" -- that is your invention so have fun beating on a strawman this was what I said.

If I had pre-planned the npc then I had enough information to decide what they did without a stupid table.- But apparently you cannot how sad /sarasm.

Here is what you just did to me --- have fun with it ---

See how we can both play the absolutist crap.

OR instead

No it means I have enough information to decide their reaction or actions by roleplaying I do not like the simplistic table results and randomness. DM choice has more nuance and can have more contextual meaning than any table.

None of that deserves a reply or seems in the slightest to be a reply. Are you posting drunk, or is the problem you are sober?
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
None of that deserves a reply or seems in the slightest to be a reply. Are you posting drunk, or is the problem you are sober?

Possibly the latter I could use being drunk, I might relax better, as over stressed from work .

What issue do you have with this?

"No "predefined npc" means I have enough information to decide their reaction or actions by roleplaying I do not like the simplistic table results and randomness. DM choice has more nuance and can have more contextual meaning than any table."
 

Celebrim

Legend
Possibly the latter I could use being drunk, I might relax better, as over stressed from work.

I can sympathize with the work issue. Personally, I'm a fan of having an Old Fashioned before bed.

What issue do you have with this?

I don't have an issue. For the record, I am the original 'edition warrior'. I unapologetically advocated against the design choices in 4e from the very start. Based on WotC's hints about where they were going, the lack of transparency, the revocation of the OGL, and their disparaging comments about 3e, I felt from the start that 4e was not going to be the game for me and was too radical of a departure from prior versions of D&D. I called it "D&D for people who have never liked D&D before". It was an appeal not to their base, but to the people outside of their customer base.

But I've never particularly thought it was a bad game, have admired certain things about it, have no problem with its fans loving its positives (the things as this thread says, that you gain compared to Trad D&D), and even took a few queues from it in my house rules - at least to the extent of taking my thinking in some directions I would have never gone without exposure to it.

Likewise, I don't have an issue with how you handle the considerable challenge a DM faces in animating the NPCs in the game. Fiat is a perfectly valid manner of handling NPCs, and all DMs rely heavily on fiat when running NPCs simply because as you said, no table can simulate meaningful conversation or capture the complexities of a character.

What I am asking, for the purpose of provoking discussion, is how different GMs handle the issue of fiat NPC behavior and in particular what NPCs that they handle solely by fiat, and why, and what portions of NPC behavior they handle solely by fiat, and why.

So this gets us done to the only "issue" I have, such as it is, which is I don't think from what you are saying you view an NPCs disposition and his personality as separable things in the way I do. It comes down to what you mean in the following quote by "reaction".

"No "predefined npc" means I have enough information to decide their reaction or actions by roleplaying I do not like the simplistic table results and randomness. DM choice has more nuance and can have more contextual meaning than any table."

So, when I'm running an NPC, any NPC at all, the NPC's personality is not the same thing as their disposition toward the party or the individual members of the party. Their personality is something I decide and animate by fiat, largely because I find it quicker, more interesting, and more realistic to design NPCs in that manner rather than consulting a random table to brainstorm up a personality. I do this because, IMHO, I'm actually a really good NPC designer. And this fiat assigned personality is something that I apply to all NPCs, and by the nature of personality it has to be run by fiat. Game rules can't tell me how an NPC will behave or what an NPC will say. Game rules can't bring depth and life to NPCs.

But that is not at all what I use reaction rolls for. Reaction rolls have nothing to do with a person's personality. Reaction rolls tell me about the NPCs disposition toward the player, which is something that is only partially fiat in my mind. I mean partially fiat because for what you call 'important NPCs' (if I understand the term, more on this later), I usually set the initial disposition of the NPC based on the NPCs personality and his likely disposition toward the party in the circumstances they are likely to encounter that NPC. So, an NPC priest of a charitable deity or one that favors heroic martial action is likely to be favorably inclined toward being charitable, or toward warrior mercenaries that show up in their temple. A kind hearted nobleman known for his hospitality is likely to be favorably inclined to strange visitors. Other characters with different beliefs, goals, and personalities might likely have different initial dispositions. Likely to be, but not necessarily so. You could catch them on a bad day. They might not like your looks. They might make false assumptions about you. They might have a particular prejudice against short dark haired men.

This initial disposition I set partially based on fiat.

But what I tend to do for almost all NPCs, is give the story a chance to go places I didn't expect by giving the PCs a chance to at least partially overrule my fiat. There are a couple of reasons for doing this, but one of the most important is that it means charisma is not a dump stat. For example, there are in my game advantages you can take that make it more likely for you to give a good initial first impression. Conversely, if you are a sorcerer, then there are advantages you can take that often have offsetting social penalties - think mutations that render you outwardly non-human. These tend to cause you to give bad initial impressions. You walk up to someone that might otherwise be hospitable and you have glowing red eyes and horns, they are very much likely to react differently to you than they would if your appearance didn't come as such a shock.

But again, while the disposition is often influenced by fortune and rules, how I play out that disposition is a matter of fiat based on the fact that no table can tell me either how an NPC is likely to reason or what would be fun for the game. If an NPC is hostile, it doesn't necessarily mean that they immediately draw a weapon and suicidal charge a band of infamous mercenaries. It means that they are at the very least unhelpful and do everything in their power to oppose and undermine the target of their hostility. They could assist enemies of the PCs. They could refuse service or charge excessive prices. They could spread slander about the NPCs behind their back, poisoning the disposition of other NPCs. They engage in spiteful acts, arrange ambushes, spy on the PCs, or whatever. In some cases, hostility just might mean that they NPC flees the PC and thereafter attempts to evade any future interaction at all costs. Or in the case of an NPC that is very good at lying, this might mean a very hostile NPC pretends to be quite friendly. So knowing that an NPC is hostile doesn't force tell me how to RP them except in the broadest terms: they act differently than they would if they weren't hostile.

Any NPC, regardless of personality, can be either hostile or helpful (or anywhere in between) - even one that is a charitable pacifist. It has nothing to do with personality.

My question is, do you make this distinction? It appears you either regard personality and disposition as the same thing, or think neither has anything to do with fortune and rules.

However, you seemed to make a caveat with regards to "unimportant" NPCs. So, my question was, "What makes them 'unimportant'?" That term could mean a lot of different things. Do they have low social standing within the imagined society? Are they not expected to play an important role in the narrative? Do they have in game terms little power? Do they have no myth associated with them prior to play? Some combination of the above? Etc.

I ask, because I don't really make this "unimportant" distinction, and to the extent that I did it probably wouldn't be congruent to your meaning. One of the longest most reoccurring NPCs in my game is a 1st level commoner who was detailed in a few sentences as a unknowing minion of an 'important' villain in the story. I had know idea what that characters roll in the story was going to be or what her disposition toward the party would, but that character had a name, a backstory, a motivation, and a personality (in about as many sentences), and as it happened the relation she has to the party is as the unintentional victim of a party member's arson which I decided evolved her into a ghost haunting a party member.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I
My question is, do you make this distinction? It appears you either regard personality and disposition as the same thing, or think neither has anything to do with fortune and rules.

Basic initial disposition is to my thinking much better handled by fiat the same as personality and would be as much predefined aspect of the npc as anything - though it certainly can change. And to me the reaction table was a arbitrary fortune mechanic devoid of redeeming quality like a DM playing dice off between two monsters to see which one fights the players - is it this guy or that guy lets have the dice decide.

I am ok with influence from player character action (or generally player invocation of rules through actions) which basically attempt to explicitly affect the NPCs behaviors and attitudes (you earlier mentioned spells but skills in later editions count towards this as well);
This part has probably changed from 'back in the day' - when I disliked it more.

However, you seemed to make a caveat with regards to "unimportant" NPCs. So, my question was, "What makes them 'unimportant'?"

Its a prediction that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't and is subject to change (after players interact - them deciding the NPC is import means I now make them important). I think you are over thinking it and mostly it determines how much brain/time get allocated towards them in advance to new interactions.
 

Celebrim

Legend
This part has probably changed from 'back in the day' - when I disliked it more.

For me, this is "back in the day". It's how I used the 1e AD&D reaction check (at least in part). I'd have go back and reread the 1e AD&D rules to see if that was the intention of the RAW, but the idea that you shouldn't let players get away with treating Charisma as a dump stat by having Charisma regularly and tangibly impact how the game proceeded is nothing new for me. If we are going to dispense with that, regardless of the edition, we should just get rid of Charisma completely and rely on player charisma.

I have evolved a little bit with respect to something like a 3e Diplomacy check. Players attempting diplomacy are not allowed to make the proposition, "I make a diplomacy check to get the NPC to help us." Under my procedures of play, that's treated as an invalid proposition, much as a PbtA based game would treat a proposition that couldn't be unambiguously resolved to a particular move. In order to be a valid social skill check, the player must describe what they say, preferably as a first person in character statement to the NPC. This is because the content of the statement matters, and because I prefer social encounters to be played out in a natural 'theatrical' style. (This preference could be stated to be "simulate the situation with the the least abstract resolution system practical".) This is a somewhat evolved position from how I ran 1e, when almost all RP was done by fiat making a reaction roll to set anything but initial disposition of an NPC that wasn't a follower/retainer/henchmen would have been rare, but does represent the direction I was going with 1e by say 1994 when I started wanting a skill system and started wanting to treat all characters equally rather than arbitrarily classifying them into PCs, NPCs, Henchmen, Retainers, Monsters, etc. with each having different rules.
 

The traditional approach to play in a PnP RPG is that you are simulating the world and therefore there is nothing that is not a matter of play. Rather than seeing the purpose of the rules to be to tell you how to play, followers of this traditional paradigm see the rules only as a means of resolving uncertainty or conflict resolution. Traditional rules sets rarely have a strong proposition filter which tells you which propositions are legal. They only have suggested tools for resolving propositions and some sort of table agreement, often unstated, for filtering propositions. In play in the 1980s through mid 1990's this proposition filter was usually, "Is it realistic...", where 'realistic' meant very different things to different people. What really mattered for these tables was how they were thinking about play, not the rules set they were using. With the same rules set, they could have generated virtually any sort of play or any sort of transcript of play, simply by thinking about how to play differently and preparing for the game differently.

Obviously you know I don't agree with this.

I outlined upthread (somewhere near the beginning) what I felt are the most fundamental pieces of machinery/feedbacks that creates any singular sequence of play in traditional D&D and the holistic experience:

1) A mapped/keyed/scaled/stocked environment (primarily dungeon but possibly wilderness...where the game's machinery is put under pressure).

2) The exploration turn (and rules that interface with it such as distances, what is feasible in the interval, action resolution, rest requirements, PC build tools, equipment/spell load-out).

3) The Wandering Monster/Random Encounter "Clock" (which pressures 2 and doesn't reward resource-ablating combat).

4) Monster Reaction Rolls.

5) Neutral refereeing.

6) Potential adventuring day dynamics/potential rest availability/opportunity cost resource-based decision-making by players.

7) XP for gold/treasure (which again, doesn't reward getting into unnecessary combats).

From many conversations in the past you know I'm very much a "system matters" advocate; rules, play procedures, play agenda and principles guide the conversation that we're having at the table and incline the mental overhead of all participants at the table toward certain things (rather than others). I don't think that is a particularly controversial claim to make. Even something like "follow the rules" vs "discard and/or ignore the rules at participant x's discretion" has a significant impact on a play paradigm. So in light of that, its difficult for me to look at the above and think "that doesn't incline play toward a particular dynamic" which is what "system doesn't matter" ultimately entails.

And then, when I consider the play excerpt I've been working through (and the hypothetical 4e transliteration of it...which could manifest in dozens of ways...perhaps it doesn't manifest anything like the 5e excerpt...but for illustration, I'm saying it does), I think it should be clear how the player of the Fighter, the player of the Rogue, and the player of the Wizard are dealing with different kinds of cognitive workload and different priorities (which creates different sorts of decision-points and attendant outcomes), sum total a different play paradigm, than that of traditional D&D.

But it seems to me that you disagree with both of these things; (a) its not clear and (b) traditional D&D's fundamental machinery.

If (b) is true, here is a quick thought on that. We have pretty similar play durations (I believe we both started early 80s). My thoughts on our experiences are this; you may have had personally influencing sim priorities and were likely surrounded by folks of similar interests/priorities. I remember when Dragon was discussing these issues (D&D as game vs D&D as sim vs D&D as a collection of the two) and I remember some people having these discussions back then (at gaming shops and just in local groups of people...I was exposed to about 4 groups from the age of 7 - 10; most of them early teenagers). There was a tension/divide (and there still is) that was growing and it became more pervasive as time went on (with a lot of people abandoning D&D for Runequest or Rolemaster). As certain handbooks and articles came out, D&D culture began to drift to this heavy mash of the traditional concepts above and the growing sim priorities (throwing things out like xp for Treasure/Gold, not using Wandering Monsters because they weren't "realistic" for the ecosystem etc). But I don't call that traditional D&D. I'd call that the 2nd wave of D&D.

Then the Dragonlancing of D&D came about with all of the White Wolf and LARPing influences as a massive influx of Illusionism/Force, big setting, big metaplot took hold. I'd call that the 3rd wave of D&D, but I certainly wouldn't call it Trad D&D.

There are 4 components to my above post:

* Trad D&D fundamental machinery and system matters.

* In relation to the above, why the 4e transliteration is so different procedurally (input), cognitive workload (input), and output.

* 2nd wave of D&D

* 3rd wave of D&D

Where do you disagree on the above 4?
 

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