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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9581436" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Okay.How can that be the case AND ALSO, at one and the same time, in one and the same place (Toril), in one and the same sense, there is not, at all, any restriction whatsoever?That's the thing I'm catching on here. Either there is a restriction on Toril's Astral Plane, or there isn't.If there is--if it is, as the book in question says, a "channeled" transitive plane--then it can't be the case that FOR TORIL, the Astral Plane really truly does exist everywhere and allow you to go anywhere you like etc., etc. If there isn't such a restriction, then the World Tree model is simply, straight-up, objectively wrong about the nature of reality. It's not "oh that's just one story we tell", it's just...flat-out incorrect on an enormous swathe of how reality works for Toril.Only one of these things can be true. This is a hard binary. Either there is a restriction, or there isn't. If there is, then the World Tree model is simply correct and the other models that claim you can plane shift directly between any two Outer/Inner planes are just straight-up wrong about that, or there isn't, and the World Tree model is simply straight-up wrong about that.There is no in-between here. We're talking about one specific plane (so it is the same place). There is only one possible sense, either you can do the thing, or you can't. And we're talking about a single specific time (late 15th century by the current FR calendar, IIRC?), so that doesn't affect things either. We have two competing claims:1. "You cannot, even in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."2. "You can, at least in principle, plane shift directly between two different planes in the late 15th century on Toril."One or the other of these claims must be true. The World Tree claims the former, very explicitly. The World Axis and Great Wheel claim the latter.Hence, it is not possible that all three cosmologies can be said to reasonably reflect the observable reality of Toril, the default setting of 5.x (even though Greyhawk is getting renewed interest). Even before we start looking at how the World Tree claims there are specific planes that just straight-up don't exist in the World Axis or Great Wheel, and  likewise that there are planes that exist in the Great Wheel that don't exist in the other two etc.!Now, maybe we can say these are all ad-hoc models getting constantly revised and updated as new discoveries are made, or as changes to reality occur. If that's the case, they should in fact explain that, rather than just leaving it up to implication that "well, the models only make sense if we the readers continuously retcon them, so obviously we have to continuously retcon them." That is, at the very least, extremely sloppy worldbuilding.</blockquote>

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