4e Creatures, Not Scary?

[LostSoul]

Granted, playing 4 levels higher might work better. I bet a 24th level dragon is a lot tougher with level 20 PCs.

The suggestion in the DMG (under "Dragon's Den") is 1 solo monster of level n + 3.

edit: And take a look at how the example encounter group under the lich entry will play out. That looks like a scary encounter.

 

[malraux]

But they probably know that they can kill it anyway. It's highly unlikely to be be more than +4 levels, and even that's really only a possibility if the party's at full health.

Sure the above thinking is metagaming, but that's part of the game as well, IMO.

joe b.

But isn't that an element of any game system? Or at least most?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

But what happens when all of that storytelling fear turns into a lich firing a pea-shooter that just annoys people? I just don't see the lich as written being very exciting in combat and a creature that isn't exciting in combat is going to be a let-down when you try to explain his great power.

Well, there are two separate wants here, and you have to think of them separately to get the right answer:

1. The lich is personally capable of backing up that storytelling fear, even if you strip him down to his bony behind, lock him in a big room, and let the fully equipped and prepped party take him on. By definition, I think, this lich is a lot more powerful than the characters. Add some templates, or class levels, or just make up an uberlich, but if you want the guy to display great power, give him great power.

2. The lich, by virtue of his intelligence, undeadness, history of being cunning, whatever you think makes him scary--tends to have edges. It might be minions. It might be having 37 ways out, after hurting the party for 2 rounds. It might be some special equipment or environment that he is better positioned than the PCs to take advantage of. If the DM can pull it off, he might simply demonstrate more tactical ability than the average monster. It might be that he is simply the kind of devious mastermind that the party will never encounter while they are close to full strength (absent some truly inspired play by the players). If you want the guy to be scary without extra power, then you use all the scary tricks you can cram down your voluminous DM sleeves.

Of course, having thought of these things separately, nothing stops you from combining some subset of each into some truly frightening, synergistic hybrid lich.

What scares players is strange, anyway. Sometimes, the best thing to do is just try a bunch of things and see what they react to. Remember those things, and have the lich use some of them.

I had a campaign (Arcana Evolved), where in a crucial battle with a re-emergent crocodile godling, and his cultist followers, a summoned fire monkey (elemental) got loose among rolling barrels which turned out to contain lamp oil. Now part of the scariness was that they were trying to rescue some kidnapped villagers. But they were pretty scarred about flammable things for the rest of the campaign. And the fire monkey was on their side.

Things spiraling out of control is almost as scary as the unknown. Unknown things spiraling out of control is really scary. You just need enough elements in the fight scene to get that spiral started.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

But isn't that an element of any game system? Or at least most?

Most systems, anyway. However, nothing stops you (in any system you know well enough to pull it off) from telling the players that you intend to confront them with much stronger (and weaker) challenges, give them information to sort it out, and then let the chips faill where they may.

Granted, some players hate that. Mine thrive on it. They get almost as much fun at being clever enough to escape or avoid certain encounters as they do fighting. But they know that sometimes they aren't as clever as normal, or in a spate of risk taking or heroism, take on more than they can handle. It doesn't take much of that to leave some residual fear in the encounters that (seem to) fit the level guidelines.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Mike's Scary Lich

So I spent a short bit of time with the DMG coming up with my own Lich using the template and a base 24th level Eladrin Wizard. I think what I came up with would scare the pants off of most players:

Mike's Scary Eladrin Lich, 24th level Lich Wizard
init +21 speed 5
ac 38 fort 32 ref 39 will 38, resist 15 necrotic
hp 318
action point 1
Aura 5; 5 necrotic damage

Shadow Shift: Move action, shift 5

M: Lich Touch; +21 vs AC; 2d6+8 and the target is stunned

R Dark Blast, minor action: +29 vs AC; range 20; 4d4+9 damage

Shadow Blast: Recharge 5,6; range 20; +29 vs Reflex; 4d6+9, 2 secondary targets within 20 of the first: +29 vs Ref; 2d6+9; Tertiary Targets: all other enemies within 20; +29 vs ref; 1d6+9

Death Storm: Recharge 5, 6; Burst 4 within 10; +29 vs Fort; 4d6+9; The cloud blocks line of sight, and its area is heavily obscured. Any creature that enters the cloud or starts its turn there takes 10 necrotic damage. The cloud lasts until the end of your next turn, or you can dismiss it as a minor action.

Spellmaster; minor, regain either Death Storm or Shadow Blast

Time Stop: Minor once per encounter; You gain two extra standard actions, which you can’t use to attack other creatures.

Rending of the Shadowfell: once per encounter; Burst 4 within 10; +29 vs Reflex; 2d10+9 necrotic and target is immobilized. Zone is difficult terrain. Sustain minor: repeat the attack against any creature not immobilized in the zone and deal 1d10 necrotic to those that are immobilized.

base stats: str 11 dex 13 con 13 int 26 wis 24 cha 11

I cheated a little by making his converted magic missile into a minor spell. I think elites should have at-wills used as minors instead of standards. They just don't get enough actions otherwise.

I also gave him a paralyzing touch. What happened to the lich's paralyzing touch?

Other than that, that's built using the DMG rules for an NPC and I think its a lot more dangerous and cool than the lich in the book. A lot more controllery too if you ask me.

I'm glad 4th edition makes it so easy to build custom monsters like this. I just think whoever wrote the lich entry didn't care too much about him.

I can also hope that Open Grave includes some good Lich variants. I love liches.

 

[Victim]

I think part of the problem is that many monsters are supposed to be scary as part of a group, rather than by themselves. Looking at a bunch of not solo monsters and seeing them as weak is ignoring that they're supposed to be part of a larger whole. A scary group of monsters will be greater than the sum of its parts.

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Some of these monsters seem pretty dangerous to me. By itself, the level 24 example lich has regeneration, an autodamage aura over a wide area, a Second Wind (with elite HP!), elite properties (AP, save bonus), can stun, and has a big damage area attack. And it's less than half of a standard encounter. Liches in general have recharge on powers that are normally per encounter.

So in the context of an encounter, a lich seems pretty dangerous. They're usually hard to take out quickly with Regen, extra defense bonuses (compared to other templates), and Second Wind (it's rare for monsters to be able to use healing surges). And that extra time to kill means that lich continues to get its good powers back while the PCs use theirs up, and the aura is inflicting more damage. Now let's add some back up - a lich works well with undead allies themetically, with his necromantic power. And mechancially - the lich has the option to dish out necrotic damage, which isn't going to hurt his undead allies. So his area attacks can be selective essentially. Stunned creatures grant CA, so lich increases the effectiveness of his allies - especially those who gain extra damage with CA or against stunned targets.

So consider the case of the lich stunning the cleric, spending his AP to drop his 6d6+ area power, and then sending some Sword Wraiths or Ghouls in to exploit the vulnerable character. Now the healer and person most likely to be doing the radiant damage needed to stop the enemy regen is taking a bunch of damage and losing his turn - so that damage won't be healed right away! Next turn, there's a decent chance (~56%) the lich will get one of his powers back to use again.

 

[Runestar]

Another thing about 4e creatures is a player has no idea what the creature they are about to fight can do. Yeah, its a simple goblin, but irontooth shows that being a goblin doesn't stop you from scaring parties. I think the flexible monster creation rules can help keep a party in suspense.

I am not trying to degenerate this thread into yet another edition war, but how is this unique to only 4e? Even in 3e, I could easily customize monsters by playing around with their feat allotment, templating or tacking on additional class lvs. Heck, you want a chimeric chimera, there are actually rules for this...

 

[LostSoul]

Other than that, that's built using the DMG rules for an NPC and I think its a lot more dangerous and cool than the lich in the book. A lot more controllery too if you ask me.

I don't know if it's more dangerous or not, but I like it. It's very cool, could make for a fun fight. Nice work.

 

[malraux]

I am not trying to degenerate this thread into yet another edition war, but how is this unique to only 4e? Even in 3e, I could easily customize monsters by playing around with their feat allotment, templating or tacking on additional class lvs. Heck, you want a chimeric chimera, there are actually rules for this...

It's not unique to 4e, but from my experiences in 3e, its so much easier to do in 4e over 3e. For example, right now I'd say I'm at ~40% of monsters are run right from the book or just reskinned with effectively no stat changes. ~40% of monsters require only minor leveling/deleveling. The remainder are invented. That's a lot of surprises. In 3e, that process just took too much work for every few monsters to be original. But I'll agree that its not unique to 4e, it just seems to me to encourage it.

 

[SlyFlourish]

It's not unique to 4e, but from my experiences in 3e, its so much easier to do in 4e over 3e. For example, right now I'd say I'm at ~40% of monsters are run right from the book or just reskinned with effectively no stat changes. ~40% of monsters require only minor leveling/deleveling. The remainder are invented. That's a lot of surprises. In 3e, that process just took too much work for every few monsters to be original. But I'll agree that its not unique to 4e, it just seems to me to encourage it.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. 4e, as it stands, gives me, as a DM, plenty of tools to build any sort of nasty creature I want. I whipped up that 24th lich above in about 10 minutes and I think it's ready to play.

I just think 4e monsters sometimes lack that oompf I'm used to with really dangerous creatures. I can probably get over this by upping the level of the encounter to +3 and make it a solid challenge.