D&D 4E 4E Cross-Class Power Selection

[phloog]

I have not run/played 4E yet - still deciding if I will or not, but I had a question in reading the books.

In 3.x, you couldn't be a 4th level Wizard and then when you hit 5th level just take the 5th level boosts from some other class - not just because it was silly, but because the levels/classes were setup where some levels were not as neato-kean, but that was the 'fee' you paid for the cool stuff later. You had a level where all you got was XXX, but then the NEXT level you got SuperMondo Power B19.

In 4E, it seems that there were two philosophies in play:

1) Fairly equivalent POWER between classes, just a change in emphasis (striker vs. controller vs...), and

2) SEEMINGLY no 'jump levels' other than 11th and 21st....there SEEM to be (haven't read it all) few if any 'lame' levels.

What I'm getting at is this...with a group of players who are not abusive, would it work to allow people to select powers from OTHER classes without using the multi-class mechanic? If I am a fighter and am due to receive a 2nd level utility, does it break the game to take one from wizard? Or does it just confuse/diminish my role? Could it be not so much a free for all, but on occasion someone can check with me and pick off class?

If it just diminishes a PCs power in-role, then I think I'm fine with that as I'm not a big fan of the roles emphasis anyway.

Thoughts?

 

[Kannik]

IIRC one of the designers mentioned in an interview that the powers (at least at the start, ie, when it was just the PHB out) were designed to be 'swappable' that way power-wise. That's why most of the special bits are tagged onto the class (such as the ranger's quarry or the warlocks curse) rather than making the individual power more, er, powerful. So other than breaking 'theme' or role it should be fine.

And probably create some interesting characters and in-game moments. }

-Kannik

 

[Neonchameleon]

Two things.

1: How munchkin are your groups? Because I can see things going horribly wrong.

2: Certain classes have fewer class features and better powers. For instance look at the ranger's twin strike compared to ... just about anything. Or the Barbarian's Pressing Strike for some serious mobility.

3: There's some quite serious synergy if you know where to look. To me the obvious case would be a dagger wielding rogue grabbing powers off the monk list, probably starting with Five Storms (at will shift 2 + close burst 1 that does d8 damage before sneak attack).

 

[Mengu]

As long as you don't run into things like, okay we hit level 6, everybody pick up Rousing Words. Or, hey anyone got a good level 5? rain of steel rules. All right everyone grab it.

It could quickly become a game of what's the best power at any level, instead of what your class can do.

I think multiclass power swaps are powerful enough that the cost of a feat can often be justified. And hybrid classes already get some great options when they can pick from 2 classes. Open it up to 36 classes, and you could end up with an incoherent hodgepodge of characters in your hands.

Even if you have players who are pillars of self moderation, the temptation to "find a *better* power from another class" would be too strong I think.

 

[jbear]

Having each PC take a Theme might be the kind of thing you are looking for. So far only Dark Sun themes exist, but that will change in time, I'm certain.

If your game isn't Dark Sun you could either refluff them or make your own hand picking powers from a different class that are similar/relevant themewise to background or plot.

I'd be wary of giving free reign access to another classes powers. It should be something you remain in control of, and that given the options, they choose whether they stick with their main class selection or opt for the theme power available at that level.

The cool thing about themes is that they key off the highest stat. So a Fighter with the Veiled Alliance theme has a magical attack that makes himself or an ally become invisible to the target. The rest of the theme options follow along that deceptive/disappearing type line.

Themes is something I'm going to introduce as a quest reward when my PCs complete the next major part of the quest and make some vital decisions. Depending on their decisions they will open up one theme or another. I hope by the time they reach this stage of the adventure more themes have been published.

Are themes a feature of the Class Compendium coming out in January, does anyone know?

 

[Herschel]

It could be very tricky. If I'm playing a Fighter, Assault Swordmage or another strenth-based melee character, for example, I'd fill dailies with Barbarian Rages a lot of times and Curtain of Steel is great for defenders.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I tried it, and it works well with a mature group that is open to honnest discussions about the feel of there characters (witch of cource means it didn't work for us )

all jokeing aside, it is very easy to over board, or under doe such changes.


Good example: One PC wanted a Martial Artist feel, that was not a monk, but more of a isrelie special forces type... so he took Monk Unarmed strike, rouge sneak attack, reflufed swordmage warding, leather armor prof, One stance from the fighter-slayer, one move trick from the theif, a ranger multi attack encounter at levels 1 and 3, and barbran rages (refluffed) as 1st and 5th dailys.

Bad (Iwant to kill jon) example: One took the Avenger Oath, the best multi attack powers from Barbarian, Ranger, and Fighter, scale armor prof, and the sword mage mark...

Good example: One PC took the shawman and refluffed him as a necromancer, switched out the dailies for summons (some from invoker some wizard, all refluffed as undead) and took cloth armor, and wizard implments (he moslty used Tomb, and staff.

Ok example: One PC took the Assasin shrouds, and warlocks curse, and mixed them into one power that fueld a dark spiral aura. He then took the warlock shadow walk, and the Assasin shadow port, and insubstantial. His at wills where all psionc augmentables (so no encounters) I belive all from battle mind, his daily's where rouge dailies.

Ok example: One PC took the warlord(Inprieing lord) aura for action points, and int bonus, Paliden lay on hands, Battle mind mark, and his at will's where cleric and fighter...his encounters and dailies where warden (at 5th he had 2 1st level daily forms)

all in all we had 2 slightly underpowered characters and one OMG overpowered...

 

[phloog]

First off, thanks for all the replies and hopefully more will chime in.

I don't think I ever saw it as a 'classless' game, where you just pick what you want. To me it would spring from a story element, and while it would be the player's choice to TAKE it, I would have to offer it, or would have to offer it based on a discussion about where the player wanted the character to go.

My players are all 40+ year-old men with kids who get to play once a month - we don't have TIME to be powergamers, so any uber-power combo would be entirely accidental, and our campaign could endure it.

I think that it would tend to be more theme-y (to become Joss Whedon-y briefl-y) than about powers/combos/synergies.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The main problem is that there are some classes that were built with the idea that they would gain the bulk of their benefits from their class abilities and therefore have weak powers (ie - a rogue), and others where their mechanics were baked into their powers and therefore have strong to crazy powers (ie - barbarian), and others just have crazy strong powers because the developers didn't seem to understand the math behind them (anything multi-attack).

It's very easy to make a character with powerful class abilities who picks up powerful powers and ends up being far too good (an avenger with twin strike).

Even if that weren't the case, there are some definite stand-out powers at certain levels that everyone would take.

 

[Ahrimon]

I would definately give virtue (Pal Util 2) to my barbarian. Theme it as a mini rage, str from the spirits, etc. I think it makes a good thematic fit to many classes. It would definately up their power level a bit though.