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4e death of creative spell casting?
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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 3771085" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>Unfortunately, this is a double edged sword. We used to play like this back in the day as well. I remember the problems it caused as well as the fun.</p><p></p><p>For instance, we were playing a mix of 1st and 2nd edition for a while. One of the things I remember is when the DM decided to have the BBEG in the campaign confront us months and months earlier than we would have ever actually met him, knowing full well that he was so powerful we couldn't beat him.</p><p></p><p>So, while he was bragging about his plot to us....one of our party members cast Grease on him. The BBEG laughed at us because it was only Grease and he was way too powerful for him to care about it. Then the PC cast Burning Hands. He argued that Grease was flammable in real life, so of course it was in D&D as well. And if you've ever been doused in grease and set on fire, it hurts a LOT. And it continues for a while. Surely, it has to do at LEAST the damage of a level 10 fireball, being completely immersed in fire. And it would do that damage every round until the grease spell ran out.</p><p></p><p>The DM said "Wow...that makes sense....ok, he teleports out." And the PC argued "What? He's going to cast a spell while ON FIRE? Surely he's in WAY too much pain for that." And the DM said "Oh, yeah...well....he....umm...dies..."</p><p></p><p>And it turns out that if you are able to defeat a level 15 enemy when you are level 6, you can cause the entire party to gain 3 levels. Plus, our DM gave out XP for magic items we kept based on their gold piece value. So, our wizard who got the spellbook of the enemy managed to go up 2 more levels from the XP from that. And the DM had to rewrite the entire adventure.</p><p></p><p>And it sucks when the PCs figure out that using spells in nonstandard ways is WAY more powerful than using spells in the way they were intended. Then suddenly, it's way cooler to play a wizard than any other class, since you are WAY more powerful than everyone else. Not only that, but it's much better to cast a grease and a burning hands than it is a fireball, so it becomes the ONLY tactic.</p><p></p><p>Sure...you say "But that's a DM problem...if the DM didn't let players push them around like that, they would have just said 'No, it isn't flammable' or 'no, it only does 1d4 damage a round'". However, each DM would have a different interpretation of the spell and it's "out of the box" effects. That's the problem. One DM lets you use spells in nonstandard ways in order to defeat enemies with almost no danger whatsoever and the next decides that nothing happens at all. No way to tell what will happen.</p><p></p><p>Plus, there's the problem when DMs start using those strategies AGAINST the party. It's no fun when you face certain death with almost no way of stopping it from first level spells because of an interpretation the DM made about how they work together.</p><p></p><p>Also, there's the problem of what happens when players and the DM disagree about the effects of a spell. Suddenly, everyone else in the group is sitting back and listening to a large argument about how the spells work together. Not fun for anyone.</p><p></p><p>I say, better to say "1st level spells have X power...they don't do anything else no matter how good of an interpretation you might have for them." That eliminates more problems than it creates. Yes, it is sometimes nice to have some creativity and I miss it somewhat. But I'm willing to put up with that loss in order to lose the rest of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 3771085, member: 5143"] Unfortunately, this is a double edged sword. We used to play like this back in the day as well. I remember the problems it caused as well as the fun. For instance, we were playing a mix of 1st and 2nd edition for a while. One of the things I remember is when the DM decided to have the BBEG in the campaign confront us months and months earlier than we would have ever actually met him, knowing full well that he was so powerful we couldn't beat him. So, while he was bragging about his plot to us....one of our party members cast Grease on him. The BBEG laughed at us because it was only Grease and he was way too powerful for him to care about it. Then the PC cast Burning Hands. He argued that Grease was flammable in real life, so of course it was in D&D as well. And if you've ever been doused in grease and set on fire, it hurts a LOT. And it continues for a while. Surely, it has to do at LEAST the damage of a level 10 fireball, being completely immersed in fire. And it would do that damage every round until the grease spell ran out. The DM said "Wow...that makes sense....ok, he teleports out." And the PC argued "What? He's going to cast a spell while ON FIRE? Surely he's in WAY too much pain for that." And the DM said "Oh, yeah...well....he....umm...dies..." And it turns out that if you are able to defeat a level 15 enemy when you are level 6, you can cause the entire party to gain 3 levels. Plus, our DM gave out XP for magic items we kept based on their gold piece value. So, our wizard who got the spellbook of the enemy managed to go up 2 more levels from the XP from that. And the DM had to rewrite the entire adventure. And it sucks when the PCs figure out that using spells in nonstandard ways is WAY more powerful than using spells in the way they were intended. Then suddenly, it's way cooler to play a wizard than any other class, since you are WAY more powerful than everyone else. Not only that, but it's much better to cast a grease and a burning hands than it is a fireball, so it becomes the ONLY tactic. Sure...you say "But that's a DM problem...if the DM didn't let players push them around like that, they would have just said 'No, it isn't flammable' or 'no, it only does 1d4 damage a round'". However, each DM would have a different interpretation of the spell and it's "out of the box" effects. That's the problem. One DM lets you use spells in nonstandard ways in order to defeat enemies with almost no danger whatsoever and the next decides that nothing happens at all. No way to tell what will happen. Plus, there's the problem when DMs start using those strategies AGAINST the party. It's no fun when you face certain death with almost no way of stopping it from first level spells because of an interpretation the DM made about how they work together. Also, there's the problem of what happens when players and the DM disagree about the effects of a spell. Suddenly, everyone else in the group is sitting back and listening to a large argument about how the spells work together. Not fun for anyone. I say, better to say "1st level spells have X power...they don't do anything else no matter how good of an interpretation you might have for them." That eliminates more problems than it creates. Yes, it is sometimes nice to have some creativity and I miss it somewhat. But I'm willing to put up with that loss in order to lose the rest of it. [/QUOTE]
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