D&D 4E 4e death of creative spell casting?

[sidonunspa]

Back on the Wotc boards I was responding to Chris Thomasson’s last blog, I wanted to post my thoughts here to see what you all think.


When Chris was talking about his home game I came to the realization that 4e will be the final death blow for creative spell casting. You know; good old thinking outside of the box which separated the good casters from the bad. The kind of ideas which would cause the GM’s jaw to drop and turn the tide of a battle.


The only thing I miss about 1.0 and 2.0 D&D, spell casters where able to think outside the box when it came to using their spells.


Now with 3.X and coming 4e, spells have become so formulated that the “thinking outside the box” which made playing spell casters so fun in the old additions is pretty much dead…


There just seems to be no more room for creative spell casting. Spells do X, Y, and Z and that’s all.


Example: One of my favorite memories involved creative spell casting happened when I was playing a 2e campaign way back; I was playing a wizard and somehow got separated from the party. I walked into a room and found I was vastly outnumbered 6 to one (Half-Orc Mercenaries we were sent to stop). In an act of desperation I casted a wall of ice on the floor (covering the entire room in a 1” thick slab of Ice, causing everyone to make checks to keep standing) then the following round I cast lightning bolt… into the slab of ice. Needless to say everyone in the room was fried (including myself) Thank god I had a ring of regeneration. (Which in our home game would turn to dust if it ever brought you back from the dead)

 

[Deguello]

Is that actually how it happened Pete,

Or did you really spill your drink and then threaten the DM. By grabbing the bug zapper from the patio?


Actually I, like that resolution..(Yours above) However, as you are caught up in a Global campaign Achoo!!! Subliminal message (LA) you kinda have to strip the DM's of some creativity to level the playing field.

However the best DM's out there realize that player enjoyment is still number one..and work within your framework... Something you could never get out of a silly ole MMorpg...

 

[sidonunspa]

Is that actually how it happened Pete,

Or did you really spill your drink and then threaten the DM. By grabbing the bug zapper from the patio?

Maybe I need to try that someday

Actually I, like that resolution.. However, as you are caught up in a Global campaign Achoo!!! Subliminal message (LA) you kinda have to strip the DM's of some creativity to level the playing field.

Not true... look at our Witch Hunter game, there is tons of room for GM and player creativity, the GMs are expected to be fair and run a good game. The GMs job is to 1) make sure everyone at the table has a good time 2) Interpret the rules in a fair and fun manner.

I remember when Living City was using 2e; we had tons of creative spell casting (I remember my friend Jim doing the same trick I did with wall of Iron in a Living City adventure)

I fear that in our attempts to "level the playing field." we end up "Dum’n down the game".

By limiting creativity we limit the players… Right now the most powerful players in the Living Arcanis campaign (hell any game) are the ones that think outside the box with feat/skill/spell combinations. But that creates “one trick monkeys” which I described in a post on the Wotc board a bit back.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I worry about this too, particularly with the comments from WotC employees about how they're keen to "scale back" casters and remove "problematic" spells and so on, which, not coincidentally seem to be the ones most often used "creatively".

My favourite "creative casting" example was in a godawful melee with an Ultraloth and some other kind of "high-end" demon and my PCs. Their wizard, who was very upset with the Ultraloth, first summoned a Wall of Iron, then got the Fighter to push it over on to the Ultraloth, which I stated would not be seriously injured by this and would crawl out eventually. The wizard, wanting to keep the Ultraloth busy for some time, then summoned a Hydra, and commanded it to "jump up and down" on said horizontal wall of iron.

Understandably, the Ultraloth didn't get out from under several tons of hydra and iron for quite some time (enough time to deal with the other demon - the Ultraloth escaped in the end), and we laughed for hours.

 

[Abisashi]

WotC also considers this important. From the 4e information page:

David Noonan on spells:


"After two class meetings yesterday, I discover that I'm still smitten with the way we're "siloing" PC capabilities now. For example, it was always unfortunate how phantom steed had to compete with fireball on a wizard's "Spells Prepared" list. Don't get me wrong: Both spells are great, and they both have their place. But when all eyes at the table turn to you, it's a lot better to say, "I didn't prep phantom steed, but I've still got fireball," rather than "I didn't prep fireball, but I've still got phantom steed." Phantom steed suffers by comparison, despite its coolness, and thus it's relegated to scroll use and the occasional splash from a high-level wizard.

Not so in 4e. We've devised various ways of grouping like capabilities with like capabilities, so you don't have to sacrifice phantom steed's utility for fireball's killin'-the-bad-guys effectiveness. You'll get both. And one of the clever bits in D&D--figuring out combat uses for utility spells and vice versa--remains.

In some ways, it's like having a major and a minor in college. And 4e characters are looking a lot more well-rounded than their 3e counterparts."


Emphasis mine.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And one of the clever bits in D&D--figuring out combat uses for utility spells and vice versa--remains.

It's nice that they've said that, but they've also said they're keen to nerf gaseous form etc., so it seems a little contradictory. I also wonder what exactly they mean by "utility spells". Is a "Wall" spell a utility spell or a combat spell? It's usually cast in combat, after all.

 

[sidonunspa]

It's nice that they've said that, but they've also said they're keen to nerf gaseous form etc., so it seems a little contradictory. I also wonder what exactly they mean by "utility spells". Is a "Wall" spell a utility spell or a combat spell? It's usually cast in combat, after all.

I was about to say something like this.. thank you.

 

[Shayuri]

I'm reasonably confident that cunning players will find ways to cast spells creatively no matter what Wizards does to them.

As for what Wizards will do to them, no one knows yet. Vague references are all we've got.

I have high hopes...and dire fears. Time will tell which wins in the end.

 

[sidonunspa]

I have high hopes...and dire fears. Time will tell which wins in the end.

Yay! I'm not alone

 

[Morrus]

It's nice that they've said that, but they've also said they're keen to nerf gaseous form etc.,

I've missed that - where did they say that?