D&D 4E 4e: Death of the Bildungsroman

[hong]

two described Bildungsroman as the stableboy, shepard etc type character, which may have been inaccurate but does not change the point of his post, some people like to play with the threat of death at every corner

And yet when I said to just halve everyone's hp, this didn't go down well....

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Exactly.

 

[Dormain1]

I have no problem halving the HP but it's the spells and exploits you need to cut back too

perhaps scale back at will to encounter and encounter to daily leaving racial powers as is

so a human gets one @will one encounter and one daily

and eladrin gets no @will but two encounter and one daily

I can understand some will not like to play such characters but some may

PrecociousApprentice sorry for calling you L33tist and I accept your apology without question, the points you and hong (you have said it a few times now )have made are all correct the 4E level 1 encounter does seem to scale with a 3E level 1 encounters

i recently played a 4E level 3 party of 4 characters who managed to run through a level 3 a level 4 and a level 6 encounter with only short breaks between the level 6 was the only one to really put the fear of death into anyone, one PC got to -16 while most got to single digits with little or no surges left

It could just be that we are really efficient (we managed to get a bunch of minions to run into the forest after a cantrip ) but it was really only the early levels where we got scared, at later levels its just about how much stuff you could do and make sure you can make your save or die rolls which i was hoping 4E would fix

and im glad we are now cool (I understand your frustrations when it feels you are talking to a brick wall or "I can't hear you LALALALA")

 

[Hussar]

Something to remember though, is that Two is comparing the PC's to commoners. In 3e, that's true that PC 1 and Commoner 1 aren't all that far apart. But, prior to 3e, a 1st level fighter could easily have five or six times as many HP's as a commoner (hp:1-4), could use many weapons, wear any armor and had stats.

Comparing PC 1 to Com 1 isn't a fair comparison because we don't fight commoners. Compare what the party is facing and how well it fares.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Something to remember though, is that Two is comparing the PC's to commoners. In 3e, that's true that PC 1 and Commoner 1 aren't all that far apart. But, prior to 3e, a 1st level fighter could easily have five or six times as many HP's as a commoner (hp:1-4), could use many weapons, wear any armor and had stats.

Comparing PC 1 to Com 1 isn't a fair comparison because we don't fight commoners. Compare what the party is facing and how well it fares.

Well, for some people to "feel" like being a beginning character, they don't have to be compared to what they fight, but from where they come from - and that would be Commoners.

I do not need this feeling. If I am still fighting kobolds, I know that I am a just a beginner ...


Interesting side note:
If Commoners in 4E will be something like Minions, and 5-6 1st level characters have a small chance of beating a Large White Dragon (Level 3 or 4 Solo?), does this mean that 20-30 Commoners might also have a chance to beat down a White Dragon?

 

[pemerton]

Bildungsroman does not require any mechanical support to achieve.

<snip>

Since DMPCs (read protection) and "don't get into a fight" are not fun, then this leaves the options of "get really lucky" and "characters are special". "Get really lucky" is not fun if they don't, so mechanics have been created to achieve this, which really becomes "characters are special", at least in game mechanical sense if not actually in fluff sense. In any event, 4e lessens the need or possibility of the unfun options for bildungsroman, while leaving only the fun possibilities still in for those who like this trope. It just requires that you separate your "story" from your "game" a little.

Excellent post!

But it seems that many players do not want to separate story and game, or are unable to (ie are simulationist by habit) which means they may not enjoy 4e.

Unfortunately for them, it means they are stuck with "adveristy/luck for the PC" equating to "adversity/luck for the player", which can sometimes be an obstacle to enjoyment when playing a game.

 

[pemerton]

Interesting side note:
If Commoners in 4E will be something like Minions, and 5-6 1st level characters have a small chance of beating a Large White Dragon (Level 3 or 4 Solo?), does this mean that 20-30 Commoners might also have a chance to beat down a White Dragon?

More work is clearly required to exorcise your inner simulationist!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

More work is clearly required to exorcise your inner simulationist!

The poor guy doesn't deserve this. He deserves a little attention from time to time, considering the spotlights my inner-gamist, narrativist, butt-kicker, tactican and power-gamers continually enjoy...