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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 3867812" data-attributes="member: 2205">Me neither, but I've at least looked at some of the lower planes material, and frankly, the Western folkloric tradition is an extremely strong element of how demons and devils have been presented in D&D.  For that matter, they kinda always have been, although it's been partially obscured by the whole alignment issue, which confuses the basic similarities between all the fiends.Not for all devils, but for some.  Erinyes are specifically called out as fallen angels, as are Beelzebub and... uh... Belial, I think?.  Asmodeus is hinted at as being a fallen angel.  The introduction to the Fiendish Codex 2 strongly implies, if not outright states, that the origin of devils as a whole is in lawful "angels" who became more and more brutal and evil as the unending war between law and chaos went on.  In other words, yeah, fallen angels.Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply disagreement with you.  I think that there is room for more work in "classic" fantasy and I think D&D does classic fantasy in a highly esoteric way.But, we've got the LotR game by Decipher, we've got the Conan OGL book, we've got the Song of Fire and Ice RPG---in two versions very soon, we've got Thieves World, Black Company, Fantasy HERO...It really has been done to death.  If a game is going to be classic fantasy, it better really get it right, because it's got a lot of pretty stiff competition.  Just because there's still room for classic fantasy doesn't mean that any old classic fantasy will work; it's got to either bring something new to the table, or do something so well that nothing we've seen previously competes, or there's no point.And I realize that I'm not really arguing with you, because you've never implied anything otherwise, but I tend to write kinda stream of consciousness here.And both at the same time is nicer still. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Oh, no doubt.  The open question here, I guess, is whether or not 4e is more esoteric in a D&D kinda way or less.  Or... well, that's one open question.  Another is still what the market wants; more esoteric or less.  I don't know the answer to either of those.</blockquote>

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