Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 3870821" data-attributes="member: 32164">Cool, as long as we're just debating and you're enjoying the dialogue, I'm happy to continue the conversation. You make some very good points, and as you pointed out in your post, we pretty much agree about what "level" Aragorn would be fixed at in D&D.Fair enough. I agree. However, as Elphilm pointed out, Middle Earth's "orcs" are actually D&D goblins - sorta. The standard ones are. The "black Uruks of Mordor" are much larger and more akin to D&D's orcs. They also tend to travel in packs rather than groups of 3-4.True. But this particular comment is on whether their assault on Mordor is laughable. Their numbers (7000 soldiers) are considered a fly to Sauron's army. However, there is the valid point that Tolkien's notion of worth is not strictly measured in combat prowess - King Elessar is a name for Sauron is afraid of, not because of his battle prowess (which is considerable - see below) but because he can unite all the people of Middle Earth against Sauron.There's also the notion that a LOT of D&D players metagame. The player knows he has hundreds of hit points, and so certain dumb decisions get made. An arrow or a fall isn't perceived as a serious threat by the player, even though the CHARACTER should remain reasonably cautious. If the MDT was low enough that a crit forced a save vs. death, high-level D&D players would be afraid of a sufficient number of orcs too.However, let's see the number of orcs Aragorn is willing to face."How many there were the Company could not count...When thirteen had fallen, the rest fled shrieking, leaving the defenders unharmed, except for Sam who had a scratch along his scalp." (FR, Book II, Chapter 5 - The Bridge of Khazad-dum)Fleeing from the "hundreds of orcs" driven before the Balrog, Aragorn and company find the Gate guarded by orcs."Aragorn smote to the ground the captain that stood in his path and the rest fled in terror of his wrath. The Company swept past them and took no heed of them."(FR, Book II, Chapter 5 - The Bridge of Khazad-dum)When Aragorn finds Boromir, he is pierced with many black-fletched arrows. At least 20 Uruk-Hai lie dead there. Boromir faced the entire host of Orcs (with Merry and Pippin) and killed many. However, this isn't indicative of the might of Aragorn, except by comparison. Since Boromir killed 20 foes, and we know Aragorn's more powerful than Boromir, then obviously 20 Uruk-hai would not be sufficient to slay Aragorn. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that an Uruk-hai is CR 2. That means 32 would be CR 7. That's sufficient for an even fight for Boromir (that can go one way or the other). He does lose, but he faces many more than that (and leaves 20 dead). Pippin relates that he and Merry were held by dozens of foes. More than a hundred took them.Eomer attacks them with 120 men and loses 15. Ouch!"And yet, this is the group Aragorn would assail with only Gimli and Legolas for aid. I think it's safe to say that he considers 50 or so orcs "a reasonable, but not overwhelming" challenge.True enough. Tolkien also uses phrases like "many," "too many to count," or "a great host" frequently. So pinning down the numbers of orcs to establish something like CR is tough.Yeha, I'd say it's more prophecy than power. But there is some comment about the greater members in Sauron's armies being immune to ordinary weapons. Boromir's blade can't injure the cave troll, but Sting can, as can the blades the Hobbits pulled from the Barrow. And it's Merry's blade that deals the critical blow, though Eowyn lands the killing stroke. ANd here's my evidence:"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. And glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.Aragorn also makes two interesting comments in FR:"Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it." (Book I, Chapter 11 - A Knife in the Dark)"all blades perish that pierce that Dreadful king." (Book I, Chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford).I'd say that's right. Gandalf's power seems to be somewhat conditional on the foes he faces. So that against goblins and wargs, he can use some magic, but must mostly rely on his skill with Glamdring. Which he does.However, against mightier foes, his power increases. He's a supernatural creature with the limitation of "can only use an ability of appropriate power."True. But in a previous incarnation, Glorfindel battled and slew aBalrog though it cost him his own life. Though there's some back and forth on whether it's the same character, Tolkien eventually confirmed it. This is the same Glorfindel reborn with all his power. By the way, that implies that all nine Nazgul are comparably powerful to a Balrog.I actually like Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files for similar reasons. Harry's power is quite well described and the degree of his limitations are addressed. Since Gandalf talks about his powers "tiring him," Harry's limitations seem more in line with those of traditional fantasy wizards. The whole bit of "guessing what you'll need that day" and  "preparing in advance" is pretty idiosyncratic to Vance. By contrast, Dresden's combination of fatigue and needing time to cast is a LOT more normal.True, but that's mostly because people ignore Tolkien's numbers. Tolkien doesn't relate the number of enemy warriors during Pelennor fields. He and Eomer meet in the middle of the field "though all the hosts of Mordor stand between them."Badon was a siege that lasted for days. A week or so, if I recall correctly. In that time Arthur killed 700 men. Consider Leonidas' 300 at Thermopylae. They slew hundreds of time their number. So terrain clearly makes a difference to the death toll one can inflict in a battle.</blockquote>

Verification