Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3887616" data-attributes="member: 18280">Another thought on why we should consider reading the classics......A lot of Tolkein's work centers on the idea of the reluctant hero, who has greatness thrust upon him, or the hero who is willing to sacrifice all for the good of others.&nbsp; These characters have cropped up like weeds in Tolkein's wake....and adventures assuming that the PCs would emulate these sorts began appearing by mid-to-late 1e.The heroes of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs (for example), are as self-interested as any PC.&nbsp; A would-be DM who expects his players to emulate Frodo may be sadly mistaken.&nbsp; One who expects his players to emulate El Borak, Conan, Allan Quatermain, or John Carter is probably going to have his expectations met more often.&quot;What do I do when my players refuse to submit to legitimate authority?&quot; is a question largely asked by those unfamiliar with fiction where protagonists do exactly that.&nbsp; Tarzan might submit himself to the French police because he thinks it is the right thing to do; certainly they cannot compel him to do so.&nbsp; And, he is rewarded by his actions....the French police whom he assaulted do not press charges.Right now, I'm reading The Best of Robert E. Howard Volume I:&nbsp; Crimson Shadows.&nbsp; One of the stories included, &quot;Hawk of the Hills&quot; has El Borak refuse to agree to the dictates of the British government.&nbsp; There are two protagonists -- El Borak and the government mediator sent to him.&nbsp; It's a good example of how protagonists who end up on opposite sides can be thrust into a situation where they must work together.ERB is wonderful for showing how to deal with reversals.&nbsp; Tarzan is captured countless times, and given the means to escape.&nbsp; Both REH and ERB deal with secret doors, traps, pits, poison, etc....indeed, all of the early D&amp;D tropes which are still with the game.&nbsp; ERB is great for examples of &quot;wandering monsters&quot; (all sorts of things happen to Tarzan that are not directly tied to the plot), overwhelming odds (any John Carter novel), and turning enemies into allies (John Carter, Tarzan, just about any ERB character).The recent discussion (another thread) about SoD is another example of things that, if one is versed in fantasy classics, seem less game-breaking.&nbsp; REH uses several &quot;just die&quot; effects, where a Save would literally represent the character not encountering them in the first place.&nbsp; REH, ERG, Rider Haggard, and others make use of the &quot;near miss&quot; for many effects.&nbsp; In REH stories, the protagonist always has some form of warning before such a deadly effect is encountered.In &quot;The Valley of the Worm&quot;, Howard not only has his protagonist have to rest up several days/weeks due to injury, but allows the protagonist to be killed by the death throws of the aforementioned &quot;Worm&quot;.&nbsp; It is also a story in which D&amp;D-like poison, and 3e D&amp;D-like archery, takes place.I could go on, but I hope I've made my point.&nbsp; With so much good new fantasy out there, why would anyone go back to read the old?&nbsp; One excellent reason is that the older fantasy is almost a primer on DMing this game.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3887616, member: 18280"] [b]Another thought on why we should consider reading the classics......[/b] A lot of Tolkein's work centers on the idea of the reluctant hero, who has greatness thrust upon him, or the hero who is willing to sacrifice all for the good of others. These characters have cropped up like weeds in Tolkein's wake....and adventures assuming that the PCs would emulate these sorts began appearing by mid-to-late 1e. The heroes of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs (for example), are as self-interested as any PC. A would-be DM who expects his players to emulate Frodo may be sadly mistaken. One who expects his players to emulate El Borak, Conan, Allan Quatermain, or John Carter is probably going to have his expectations met more often. "What do I do when my players refuse to submit to legitimate authority?" is a question largely asked by those unfamiliar with fiction where protagonists do exactly that. Tarzan might submit himself to the French police because he thinks it is the right thing to do; certainly they cannot compel him to do so. And, he is rewarded by his actions....the French police whom he assaulted do not press charges. Right now, I'm reading [i]The Best of Robert E. Howard Volume I: Crimson Shadows[/i]. One of the stories included, "Hawk of the Hills" has El Borak refuse to agree to the dictates of the British government. There are two protagonists -- El Borak and the government mediator sent to him. It's a good example of how protagonists who end up on opposite sides can be thrust into a situation where they must work together. ERB is wonderful for showing how to deal with reversals. Tarzan is captured countless times, and given the means to escape. Both REH and ERB deal with secret doors, traps, pits, poison, etc....indeed, all of the early D&D tropes which are still with the game. ERB is great for examples of "wandering monsters" (all sorts of things happen to Tarzan that are not directly tied to the plot), overwhelming odds (any John Carter novel), and turning enemies into allies (John Carter, Tarzan, just about any ERB character). The recent discussion (another thread) about SoD is another example of things that, if one is versed in fantasy classics, seem less game-breaking. REH uses several "just die" effects, where a Save would literally represent the character not encountering them in the first place. REH, ERG, Rider Haggard, and others make use of the "near miss" for many effects. In REH stories, the protagonist always has some form of warning before such a deadly effect is encountered. In "The Valley of the Worm", Howard not only has his protagonist have to rest up several days/weeks due to injury, but allows the protagonist to be killed by the death throws of the aforementioned "Worm". It is also a story in which D&D-like poison, and 3e D&D-like archery, takes place. I could go on, but I hope I've made my point. With so much good new fantasy out there, why would anyone go back to read the old? One excellent reason is that the older fantasy is almost a primer on DMing this game. RC [/QUOTE]

Verification