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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mordhau" data-source="post: 8413043" data-attributes="member: 7032137">That's why I asked if it was only about the DMs fun.Sure that's legitimate.  But it does suggest that if the DM is challenging the players because they think they ought to, or because they think it's their job to do so then they are, in fact, wrong.I  suspect most people DMing want their players to have lots of fun.  That, in fact, they derive most of their enjoyment from faciliating that.  Therefore, if what you are saying is correct, these people should stop challenging their players.  Right?I think, in fact, you are on the right track in that the open playtest (which was never really a playtest, however) is part of the explanation for what has happened.  I just  think the way you have tried to articulate it fundamentally doesn't work.Edit: I suspect the issue is more that players want contradictory things. They want to be challenged, but they also want to be free of restrictions and limitations.  When you put these things together, and you don't really playtest, but you offer lots of surveys that aren't necessarily based on actual play (and given timeframes often couldn't possibly be to any great extent) then you get issues.  I think it's related to what computer game designers mean when they talk about gamers <a href="https://www.thegamer.com/players-optimize-fun-out-of-games/" target="_blank">optimising the fun out of games</a>.  (But note the loss of fun - it's not about players vs DMs, it's about players vs themselves;  they make things less fun for themselves.).[MEDIA=youtube]7L8vAGGitr8[/MEDIA]</blockquote>

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