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<blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 3793571" data-attributes="member: 38324">Because chaos isn't stupidity. My chaotic good bard is every bit as capable of intricate plotting as your lawful neutral wizard. My bard just cares more about individual freedom, and your wizard cares more about tradition and law.The biggest problem with this new take for me is that they identify law and chaos (among &quot;fiends&quot;) rigidly with &quot;cares about mortal souls&quot; and &quot;cares only for destruction.&quot; How needlessly limiting! I like demons like Pazuzu, Graz'zt, Malcanthet, and Succothbenoth, who prey on a mortal's wild passions, their untamed sins, weakening the dogma and taboos that restrains their id, using their longing for selfish freedom to draw them into acts of depravity and wickedness. This is a role that devils, as described in that article, cannot play - they're creatures of order, and they use contracts and pacts to draw the souls of mortals into a rigid hierarchy ruled by an absolute autocrat. And it's a role that demons, as described there, cannot play either - what do demons care about souls, other than to devour them? A major role in the game seems to have been lost. Of course, we don't know anything about 4e yugoloths, other than that gelugons are related to them. How they fit into the cosmic scheme isn't clear, but one would imagine they aren't dedicated to demolishing taboos and dogma in the name of wickedness.Perhaps those of you who like the changes can explain why a little better, as I'm just not getting it from your posts. I see a lot of &quot;this is cool&quot; and &quot;I like this,&quot; but very little why. The more different demons are from devils, the less flexible either race is, and therefore the less useful it is. If I want an adventure involving plotting and scheming demon lords working to draw souls into the Abyss by slowly fermenting anarchy and vice - well, I have to ignore the default cosmology they've set up, which isn't that much of a burden, but it makes me wonder what the point of the new cosmology is at all. I don't see why making demons and devils as different as possible is desirable, or how it aids play in any practical manner. The author of that article seems to take that for granted, as are many of the posters here. The advantage, though, is lost on me.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ripzerai, post: 3793571, member: 38324"] Because chaos isn't stupidity. My chaotic good bard is every bit as capable of intricate plotting as your lawful neutral wizard. My bard just cares more about individual freedom, and your wizard cares more about tradition and law. The biggest problem with this new take for me is that they identify law and chaos (among "fiends") rigidly with "cares about mortal souls" and "cares only for destruction." How needlessly limiting! I like demons like Pazuzu, Graz'zt, Malcanthet, and Succothbenoth, who prey on a mortal's wild passions, their untamed sins, weakening the dogma and taboos that restrains their id, using their longing for selfish freedom to draw them into acts of depravity and wickedness. This is a role that devils, as described in that article, cannot play - they're creatures of order, and they use contracts and pacts to draw the souls of mortals into a rigid hierarchy ruled by an absolute autocrat. And it's a role that demons, as described there, cannot play either - what do demons care about souls, other than to devour them? A major role in the game seems to have been lost. Of course, we don't know anything about 4e yugoloths, other than that gelugons are related to them. How they fit into the cosmic scheme isn't clear, but one would imagine they aren't dedicated to demolishing taboos and dogma in the name of wickedness. Perhaps those of you who like the changes can explain why a little better, as I'm just not getting it from your posts. I see a lot of "this is cool" and "I like this," but very little why. The more different demons are from devils, the less flexible either race is, and therefore the less useful it is. If I want an adventure involving plotting and scheming demon lords working to draw souls into the Abyss by slowly fermenting anarchy and vice - well, I have to ignore the default cosmology they've set up, which isn't that much of a burden, but it makes me wonder what the point of the new cosmology is at all. I don't see why making demons and devils as different as possible is desirable, or how it aids play in any practical manner. The author of that article seems to take that for granted, as are many of the posters here. The advantage, though, is lost on me. [/QUOTE]

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