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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4728951" data-attributes="member: 2067">Woah, the haters and the trufans got wind of this thread fast...For what it's worth, constructively, I think Skyscraper has a brilliant way to look at the problem. You don't pit an adult red dragon against a level 3 party. If you're doing that, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The question I'd ask is: "What are you trying to do with that adult red dragon?"The answer seems to be "Have the power to intimidate the characters, knowing that it could kill them quickly if it wanted."But you see that an adult red dragon doesn't do that job in 4e, so you have to find something that DOES.The way to do that, as Skyscraper pointed out, is to just ramp up the damage. If the PC's come back to face the same dragon later and it deals less damage, it's easily explainable by the levels the characters have gained: they roll with the punches better, better defend themselves, and so take less damage.If you want a more codified system, maybe multiply the damage by tiers -- the adult dragon at 15 is "paragon tier," so against creatures in the heroic tier, it deals x2 or x3 or x4 (whatever you want to make it threatening) damage. Against creatures in the "epic tier" maybe it deals 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 damage. An epic-tier creature hitting the heroic-tier PC's might do X4 or x8 damage, while they'd do only 1/4 or so the damage to it that they'd normally do. That reflects the narrative and simulationist element out of the thing, and, while you're at it, helps explain minions (they're "mundane tier" creatures, regardless of their level). I actually really like that idea, and I find that it makes a lot of sense to look at the damage relativistically, and to make new rules for when that relativism breaks down. Sweet. That helps me with one of my huge issues with 4e, seeing it like that. Thanks, Skyscraper!</blockquote>

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