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4E Dragons - Where's the beef?
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<blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4729289" data-attributes="member: 317"><p>I don't think dragons in 4e have lost their teeth at all. True, they don't do stupendous amounts of damage with their breath weapons, but thats not really what its about anymore. Dragons now are meant to be threats that require teamwork and good planning to take down. </p><p></p><p>Three weeks ago, I DMed a fight between an adult white dragon (level 9 solo) versus six level 8 PCs at the culmination of an adventure. Outcome? The white dragon ended up fleeing, and 4 of the six PCs were dead. The party consisted of a dwarven warlord, tiefling warlock, elven ranger, human paladin, human wizard, and a half-elf cleric/warlock multiclass. Three rounds into the fight, the wizard and warlock were dead (breath weapon, and dragon triggered a cave-in), the cleric/warlock was down and dying, and warlord and paladin had been breathed on twice and were weakened (and neither seemed to be able to save against it). The ranger kept peppering it with arrows, while the warlord and paladin kept after it until eventually they brought it down to 1/4 its hit points. The ranger got lucky and landed a daily power on it (Attacks on the Run, I believe), dropping it to 20 HP. The dragon then fled, but if the ranger had missed and not inficted those two 3W+Dex ranged attacks, I have no doubt the PCs would have all been dead within another round or two. The dragon kept mauling the paladin and warlord with its Dragon's Fury power (and let me tell you, a claw/claw/bite routine hitting most rounds is BAD news, doing an average of 32 damage per mauling)!!! I've been in three combats with 4e dragons so far- the one above, one I ran with a one-shot 15th level game involving an elder black dragon, and one as a player with a young red dragon. All three battles ended with at least 3 PC deaths, and we were using good tactics and working together. Granted, all of these dragons were moving around a lot and not standing toe-to-toe with us (the black was diving back under pools of acid), but a dragon should fight smart. 4e dragons are just THAT nasty.</p><p></p><p>In 3.x, I don't think we ever had a fight nearly as tough with a dragon. Dragons in 3.x didn't have the staying power of a 4e dragon, and PCs usually buffed out the ass for the fight (elemental protections/stat boosts, AC boosts, etc), which pretty much nerfed many of the dragon's abilities. I'd still throw in surprises/unusual tactics/abilities with 3.x dragons when I could, but most of the time twinked-out wizards, sorcerers, or clerics with insane save DCs would pretty much one-shot the dragon with a spell, or fighter types would full attack and do around 1/3 to 1/2 the dragons HP in ONE attack sequence. (Yes, I know this shouldn't have happened mathematically in some cases, but it was pretty frequent in the times I DMed or played 3.x and dragons we fought after 8th level- maybe due to bad rolling on the DMs part). The only 3.x dragon-induced PC deaths I ever saw was a 3rd level rogue who tried to position for a sneak attack on a very young green dragon and got caught and isolated, and a party of 13th level PCs I DMed who foolishly tried to attack an ancient blue dragon. Equal level or even CR +1 to +3 dragons in 3.x we usually smoked without much difficulty, and certainly no deaths. And yes, this was even with killer DMs who were known to try and kill PCs with their critters. </p><p></p><p>Now umberhulks and mind flayers in 3.x? (Haven't tried them yet in 4e). Thats a whole other story.... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gothmog, post: 4729289, member: 317"] I don't think dragons in 4e have lost their teeth at all. True, they don't do stupendous amounts of damage with their breath weapons, but thats not really what its about anymore. Dragons now are meant to be threats that require teamwork and good planning to take down. Three weeks ago, I DMed a fight between an adult white dragon (level 9 solo) versus six level 8 PCs at the culmination of an adventure. Outcome? The white dragon ended up fleeing, and 4 of the six PCs were dead. The party consisted of a dwarven warlord, tiefling warlock, elven ranger, human paladin, human wizard, and a half-elf cleric/warlock multiclass. Three rounds into the fight, the wizard and warlock were dead (breath weapon, and dragon triggered a cave-in), the cleric/warlock was down and dying, and warlord and paladin had been breathed on twice and were weakened (and neither seemed to be able to save against it). The ranger kept peppering it with arrows, while the warlord and paladin kept after it until eventually they brought it down to 1/4 its hit points. The ranger got lucky and landed a daily power on it (Attacks on the Run, I believe), dropping it to 20 HP. The dragon then fled, but if the ranger had missed and not inficted those two 3W+Dex ranged attacks, I have no doubt the PCs would have all been dead within another round or two. The dragon kept mauling the paladin and warlord with its Dragon's Fury power (and let me tell you, a claw/claw/bite routine hitting most rounds is BAD news, doing an average of 32 damage per mauling)!!! I've been in three combats with 4e dragons so far- the one above, one I ran with a one-shot 15th level game involving an elder black dragon, and one as a player with a young red dragon. All three battles ended with at least 3 PC deaths, and we were using good tactics and working together. Granted, all of these dragons were moving around a lot and not standing toe-to-toe with us (the black was diving back under pools of acid), but a dragon should fight smart. 4e dragons are just THAT nasty. In 3.x, I don't think we ever had a fight nearly as tough with a dragon. Dragons in 3.x didn't have the staying power of a 4e dragon, and PCs usually buffed out the ass for the fight (elemental protections/stat boosts, AC boosts, etc), which pretty much nerfed many of the dragon's abilities. I'd still throw in surprises/unusual tactics/abilities with 3.x dragons when I could, but most of the time twinked-out wizards, sorcerers, or clerics with insane save DCs would pretty much one-shot the dragon with a spell, or fighter types would full attack and do around 1/3 to 1/2 the dragons HP in ONE attack sequence. (Yes, I know this shouldn't have happened mathematically in some cases, but it was pretty frequent in the times I DMed or played 3.x and dragons we fought after 8th level- maybe due to bad rolling on the DMs part). The only 3.x dragon-induced PC deaths I ever saw was a 3rd level rogue who tried to position for a sneak attack on a very young green dragon and got caught and isolated, and a party of 13th level PCs I DMed who foolishly tried to attack an ancient blue dragon. Equal level or even CR +1 to +3 dragons in 3.x we usually smoked without much difficulty, and certainly no deaths. And yes, this was even with killer DMs who were known to try and kill PCs with their critters. Now umberhulks and mind flayers in 3.x? (Haven't tried them yet in 4e). Thats a whole other story.... ;) [/QUOTE]
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