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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skyscraper" data-source="post: 4738966" data-attributes="member: 48518">My impression is that many players are slaves to numbers. If the numbers are written down as XYZ in the book, then that creature does XYZ all the time!Well, 4E doesn't work that way. If it's not obvious enough from experience, the designers specifically say so in the book: stay within a determined level differential.The designers have designed a rule for monsters which are much weaker than the PCs, and that's the minion rule. (They discussed that lengthily before 4E came out, when they were adressing mass combats in 3E and saying that level 1 monsters vs, say, level 12 PCs was dumb in that only natural 20s were hits, but they all were and all crit threats on top of that.) So, minions for weak monsters. But what about monsters that are much stronger? Well, there is the solo rule. But what about monsters that are way, way too strong? Well, the designers didn't do any rule for that because, if as a DM you're inclined to pit the PCs against an overpowering monster, you don't need any book:Player: "I attack. I rolled 20. I have 31 with my bonuses".DM: "You miss. The dragon eats you."Why have rules? The PCs won't hit anyway, and the opponent will kill them anyway. What is the purpose of the numbers? (I.e. my "slaves to numbers" comment.)3E is an "absolute" system. If a creature deals 24d10 damage on a breath weapon, it does so against level 3 PCs and against level 15 PCs.4E is a "relative" system. If a creature deals 3d8+3 damage on a breath weapon, it does so against PCs of level between, say, N+3 and N-6. For PCs that are way under the monster level, the numbers don't fit. You can use'em if you want; but that doesn't do the monster justice. Is the monster still overpowering? Of course. But the numbers are still not designed for such a level differential.People here are arguing whether an adult red dragon should or shouldn't kill a level 3 party with a single breath weapon. This is entirely beside the point. This is a decision for the DM to make, not the books. Whatever opponent you pit your PCs against as DM, you are the one choosing that opponent anyway (don't tell me it's not you, it's the random encounter table...). If you want a dragon that can kill in a single breath, by all means do it! If you choose a level 15 solo against a level 3 party, who cares what the book says about the level 15 solo? What is the purpose of this monster in your game? It's obviously either to kill the party, show them humility in defeat, force them to flee, force them to surrender, or something similar. It doesn't matter. The gist of the situation is that the monster is overpowering for level 3 PCs. Get him to act that way. If you want the dragon to slowly kill them over 4-5 rounds with weak breath weapons, so be it. If you want them to fry on the first round, just do it. Why is it that you need the book to confirm whether you can or not? I simply don't get it. If the adult dragon's breath weapon is not strong enough for you but you can't imagine tweaking the numbers since you absolutely want to follow the book, then choose another monster, you're the DM! Choose a level 30 solo, choose Orcus, I dunno, anything. The point being, wanting to stick to the numbers in the book makes no sense to me:You're choosing the monster, why not choose it's stats?Some posters say here that they need templates to add to monsters, they need this or that rule to create a level 15 solo monster that will TPK a party? Slaves to numbers, I say! Be free of your shackles: design your own monsters! Heck, it's even fun doing it now! And if you want an overpowering monster, design it as such!Sky</blockquote>

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