Captain Thark
First Post
I'm intrigued by the mention of 'Minion Rules'.
D&D 4E 4e Dungeon Design - New Article
- Thread starter Andor
- Start date
It was a good article. The notion of monsters being reactive in the dungeon, and groups joining other groups in battle against the PCs is of course not a new invention. It is plenty "old school".
My impression from Mr. Mearls so far is that he seems to be steering things back to roots a bit. A cause for rejoicing, if my impression is correct.
My impression from Mr. Mearls so far is that he seems to be steering things back to roots a bit. A cause for rejoicing, if my impression is correct.
Beckett
Explorer
Mouseferatu said:Well, no. But I wasn't clear; I was speaking as a designer as much as a gamer. Sometimes I'll want to do the "lone room" in a published scenario, if that's what makes sense.
But again, I don't think that'll be a problem. I don't really believe that such things will be gone, just that they'll be a lot less common. And that's just fine.
Ah, yes. There will be a lot fewer players experiencing my stuff, so I don't have quite the same concerns. But, agreed.
I play M&M frequently and I think that might be one way to think of the new Minion rules.
These are OGL rules from M&M.
MINIONS
Minions are minor characters subject to special rules in combat, and generally
easier to defeat than normal characters. The following rules apply to minions:
• Minions cannot score critical hits against non-minions.
• Non-minions can take 10 on attack rolls against minions (attackers
normally cannot take 10 on attack rolls).
• If a minion fails a Toughness saving throw, the minion is knocked
unconscious (nonlethal damage) or dying (lethal damage). Attackers
can choose a lesser effect, if desired.
• The Impossible Toughness Save rule (see at right) does not apply to
minions.
• Certain traits (like Takedown Attack) are more effective against minions.
Ported over to 4th Edition it's basically a you damage a minion it's k.o.'ed or dead rule for minor NPCs. That and the no crits thing is nice. There's nothing worse than a superhero being taken out with a pistol shot from a mugger. The Take 10 on attacks is a nice touch as well. Takedown Attack is basically Cleave in 3.5.
Again, this is just a possible avenue.
These are OGL rules from M&M.
MINIONS
Minions are minor characters subject to special rules in combat, and generally
easier to defeat than normal characters. The following rules apply to minions:
• Minions cannot score critical hits against non-minions.
• Non-minions can take 10 on attack rolls against minions (attackers
normally cannot take 10 on attack rolls).
• If a minion fails a Toughness saving throw, the minion is knocked
unconscious (nonlethal damage) or dying (lethal damage). Attackers
can choose a lesser effect, if desired.
• The Impossible Toughness Save rule (see at right) does not apply to
minions.
• Certain traits (like Takedown Attack) are more effective against minions.
Ported over to 4th Edition it's basically a you damage a minion it's k.o.'ed or dead rule for minor NPCs. That and the no crits thing is nice. There's nothing worse than a superhero being taken out with a pistol shot from a mugger. The Take 10 on attacks is a nice touch as well. Takedown Attack is basically Cleave in 3.5.
Again, this is just a possible avenue.
fuindordm
Adventurer
I'm guessing that minions are more like cohorts for monsters.
Since they're emphasizing the 'leader' role for PCs (taking a page from DDM, hm?), perhaps in this encounter the goblins got a bardic music-like bonus when the bugbear showed up. Just because they're his minions.
That would be pretty cool. I had a lot of fun with goblinoids in the Eberron setting with similar encounters--their only spellcasting tradition is the bard, and they have a lot of them. Nothing like giving a bunch of mooks a +1 or +2 bonus to hit and damage to use up the party's resources a little bit faster!
Since they're emphasizing the 'leader' role for PCs (taking a page from DDM, hm?), perhaps in this encounter the goblins got a bardic music-like bonus when the bugbear showed up. Just because they're his minions.
That would be pretty cool. I had a lot of fun with goblinoids in the Eberron setting with similar encounters--their only spellcasting tradition is the bard, and they have a lot of them. Nothing like giving a bunch of mooks a +1 or +2 bonus to hit and damage to use up the party's resources a little bit faster!
I never used the 3.e guidelines about encounters. If the PCs attack a fortress, they attack a fortress. If they sneak in a goblin lair, they sneak in a goblin lair. If they have to fight 50 ennemy at once, it's the result of their action.
Something else : 10 or even 5 foot wide corridors are somewhat silly for a defensive position. If, in4e, kobolds and goblins lives in multiple interconnected caves with 10 foot corridors between the, I don't understand how they could survive in a world populated by humans or trolls. 2.5 ft high, 1 ft wide tunnels, with slit arrows, trapped dead end, and escape routes if all is lost. Same thing for humans : has any of you already visited an authentic middle-age castle ? Those things are designed to allow you to stop more numerous ennemy ! Not to trap a little group of adventurers. It should be the same in most D&D world : marching army and ravening hordes are more a threat for most organised community than small groups.
IMHO, YMMV etc...
Something else : 10 or even 5 foot wide corridors are somewhat silly for a defensive position. If, in4e, kobolds and goblins lives in multiple interconnected caves with 10 foot corridors between the, I don't understand how they could survive in a world populated by humans or trolls. 2.5 ft high, 1 ft wide tunnels, with slit arrows, trapped dead end, and escape routes if all is lost. Same thing for humans : has any of you already visited an authentic middle-age castle ? Those things are designed to allow you to stop more numerous ennemy ! Not to trap a little group of adventurers. It should be the same in most D&D world : marching army and ravening hordes are more a threat for most organised community than small groups.
IMHO, YMMV etc...
Tharen the Damned
First Post
Instead of giving the monsters more room why not go the other way and give the PCs less room to move? Small creatures can play to their strengths to move through small holes and passages while PCs have to squeeze through.
And btw. I thought that the concept of a dynamic dungeon, where its inhabitants reacted to the PCs actions was already the standard. IMC monsters do not wait for the PCs to slay them but have their own tactics of supporting each other, run or do whatever they can in their environment. After all it their lair and they know it better than the PCs.
So, apart from the new monster design (minion rules etc.), what does Mike want to tell us with this article? Seriously, I do not see any news regarding the construction of Dungeons.
And btw. I thought that the concept of a dynamic dungeon, where its inhabitants reacted to the PCs actions was already the standard. IMC monsters do not wait for the PCs to slay them but have their own tactics of supporting each other, run or do whatever they can in their environment. After all it their lair and they know it better than the PCs.
So, apart from the new monster design (minion rules etc.), what does Mike want to tell us with this article? Seriously, I do not see any news regarding the construction of Dungeons.
