D&D 4E 4e Dungeon Design - New Article

[takasi]

I concluded a 2nd edition FR Dungeon module yesterday. It takes place in a three story manor house with dozens and dozens of jermlaine. The party was 4th level, but these little 1 HD, shortbow carrying critters with sneak attack posed a huge challenge for the party when attacking in large numbers. Every room had multiple entrances, and for these little foot and a half tall creatures there were rat holes they could use to retreat. The end result had the feeling of the movie "Gremlins", with nonstop initiative throughout dozens of rooms. The group had a good time exploring "the rest of the house" while being constantly bombarded by the critters. Of course, we have two rangers and two barbarians (go spot and listen!) in our party of six and they had fun skewering wave after wave of defending weefolk.

And while I think we're a long way from playing anything like that in an MMO (more like headcrabs in Half-Life really), it's worth noting that in D&D Online one of the first adventures is defending a keep from 200 kobolds.

Also, I ran Blackwall Keep a few years ago but I did it a little differently. I knew the lizardfolk would have little chance against the party because of their low to-hit. I also knew that the wizard could fly and had fireball. I also knew that Paizo wanted this encounter to be a "congradulations, you now kick ass" setup. However, I added a little more challenge by having the party arrive while the Lizardfolk were in mid-assault of the Keep and about to break in. The real challenge was to prevent the guards from dying.

 

[Rechan]

I like this article, but what concerns me is that "20 creatures at level 1". 20 creatures is... well, that's 20 rolls. I sure hope there's a way to reduce that.

 

[dagger]

More monsters to throw at the party also gives Wizards a side benefit for the mini business.

 

[A'koss]

I like this article, but what concerns me is that "20 creatures at level 1". 20 creatures is... well, that's 20 rolls. I sure hope there's a way to reduce that.

Ever since they began talking about mooks I wondered if they were going to use swarm-like tactics. For example, 4 kobolds attacking the same character could work as a team and make a single attack at a higher attack bonus, presenting a more credible threat to higher level characters...

 

[takasi]

I like this article, but what concerns me is that "20 creatures at level 1". 20 creatures is... well, that's 20 rolls. I sure hope there's a way to reduce that.

Well the goal probably isn't to have 20 creatures attack one target at the same time, but a crit is still a crit and will kill a first level character.

Years ago I killed a low level character with a scythe wieldling grimlock who scored a lucky x4 crit. The player was a little bummed that he was killed by a mook, but the next character he played invested in armor with fortification.

I also wonder how they're going to change grapple rules, and aid another. Whenever I pit players against a lot of mooks and see someone yawn, I throw in enough aids to guarentee a few hits or have the mooks dogpile on one of the characters until it's pinned.

And I disagree with Mr. Mearls about a single orc not making for a challenging encounter. High strength + Two Handed Fighting + Power Attack + Cleave from a single orc can make a party of 1-3 level PCs look like the mooks!

 

[Dragonblade]

Sounds like Blackwall Keep. I had the same thing happen. Fly plus fireball. Bleh.

You mean Blackwall HUT? Based on the joke of a map in Dungeon that "keep" was barely big enough to fit in a couple of horses, let alone be the site for a desparate seige vs. an army of lizardmen! But artwork in Dungeon made it look like a big castle.

So, our DM went with the artwork, tossed out that tiny floorplan, and expanded it into a big castle worthy of the name and greatly increased the number of defenders and lizard men attacking. Come on, Paizo, lets not make this kind of mistake in Pathfinder. If the artwork shows a big keep, I expect the floorplan of the place to match the artwork. And big epic battles set in a real keep are better than some small skirmish defending a shack.

 

[takasi]

Ever since they began talking about mooks I wondered if they were going to use swarm-like tactics. For example, 4 kobolds attacking the same character could work as a team and make a single attack at a higher attack bonus, presenting a more credible threat to higher level characters...

That would be interesting.

I ran a module that was designed for 1st level characters against a party of 4th level characters. The monsters were Dobbin, the evil twin of Grigs (Jimminy Cricket people). Instead of pitting the party against a dozen of these guys, I made a mob from DMG 2. It was our first "swarm" in this particular campaign, and it posed an interesting challenge. (The party originally tried diplomacy and ended up being entangled with fungus with some members knocked out by sleep poison.)

 

[takasi]

You mean Blackwall HUT? Based on the joke of a map in Dungeon that "keep" was barely big enough to fit in a couple of horses, let alone be the site for a desparate seige vs. an army of lizardmen! But artwork in Dungeon made it look like a big castle.

So, our DM went with the artwork, tossed out that tiny floorplan, and expanded it into a big castle worthy of the name and greatly increased the number of defenders and lizard men attacking. Come on, Paizo, lets not make this kind of mistake in Pathfinder. If the artwork shows a big keep, I expect the floorplan of the place to match the artwork. And big epic battles set in a real keep are better than some small skirmish defending a shack.

IIRC, the basement was a decent sized area. The tower was small but appropriate enough for the number of archers they had to defend it.

 

[Rechan]

Well the goal probably isn't to have 20 creatures attack one target at the same time, but a crit is still a crit and will kill a first level character.

Even if they are 20 attacks spread between 4 PCs, that's still 20 attacks the DM has to roll. The point of 4e is to streamline.

 

[Reynard]

This article seems to be missing a key point to dungeons: they are places of exploration and survival, not just series of fights.