D&D 4E 4e Dungeon Design - New Article

Reynard said:
This article seems to be missing a key point to dungeons: they are places of exploration and survival, not just series of fights.

Not sure what you mean: The PCs explored a room in an ancient ruin and survived an encounter with goblinoids. I'm sure traps, hazards, and other stuff won't be cut, but this article was emphasizing how monster encounters have changed.

I'm just happy they gave us a Jpeg of the famous DMG dungeon. I've wanted one since 3.5 came out...
 
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Gundark said:

I think many experienced that. His example also reminded me of Three Faces of Evil and the Hextor temple... at least the way I ran it, they were well organized and once the alarm went off even it was a running battle through corridors and rooms.
 

Festivus said:
I think many experienced that. His example also reminded me of Three Faces of Evil and the Hextor temple... at least the way I ran it, they were well organized and once the alarm went off even it was a running battle through corridors and rooms.

Yup, I was thinking of that too. It was set up as several individual encounters, but tactics were included such that those encounters would flow together into a single dynamic fight.
 

Back when I was a sales person, very little was more annoying than a supplier representative talking down to me whether it took the form of condescendingly looking down at me as a mere representative of a distributer, or fatuous flattery and a complete inability to talk honestly about the products strengths and weaknesses for all the marketing clap trap coming out of his mouth.

It would be nice if DM's spoke to other DM's as peers.

Right now, I understand WotC's reluctance to leak anything having to do with mechanics. The mechanics probably aren't finalized, and the technology (mechanics are nothing more than technology) is a trade secret. But I think they would do better to just keep quite than deploy any more substanceless articles like this. At the very least, I'm going to try to stop reading this crap.

To start with, they are trying to fix a problem I don't have. I have never been a hidebound designer. I've never felt that anything in the DMG really represented a hard and fast rule, but rather simply helpful advice and material for the DM. Mearl's basic thesis in this essay is that, because the CR system was not perfectly balanced, DM's couldn't design interesting dungeons. Mearls then argues against himself, noting that he could design interesting encounters and dungeons, its just that the EL/CR system when employed without DM judgment might not assign the correct EL/CR to the challenge. I never once thought as a DM, 'Hey, the rules prevent me from bringing reinforcements from this room next door', or 'Gee, I can't throw 40 goblins at a party of 5th level characters, because the rules tell me that the players would get slaughtered even though I can look at the numbers and see that they won't.'

The reason that this is important is that I'm extremely skeptical of the ability of any system to fix the real underlying problem here. We can do away with the CR/EL system entirely, but we are still going to have the problem that any simple algorithm for determining how hard an encounter is and what the reward should be is going to have points of failure. The new system is therefore likely to be as buggy as the old system. This is just the nature of complex systems. Mearls is here claiming not that 4E will fix the game, but that 4E will fix reality. Color me unimpressed.

Moreover, I'm extremely unimpressed with what the vague hints about how they are going to fix it suggest. I've always disliked game systems that need special rules 'mooks' - whether Paladium's rules or AD&D's special rules for '0 level fighters' or M&M's minion rules. Anything that goes much further than D20 modern or WE: SW is in my opinion intrusive, and a step backward in design. (Hopefully, it won't go further than D20 Modern, but even that has limited utility.) Worse yet, for me, the mention of minion rules meshes in exactly with some of my speculation of how they would handle certain problems that arose from other things that they've hinted at, which suggests even more strongly that they are going not in the direction that I had hoped for with any future revisions of the game.

Anyway, some of the assertions in the article are so ironic as to be funny:

First Mearl's says, "The fight would consist of the two sides lining up and trading attacks for 3–4 rounds. Few inherently interesting tactical options can even come into play." Then he says, "The monsters might flee out the secret door in area 9 or one of the doors in area 8, but with such small rooms it would be easy for the PCs to block the exits or move next to any of the monsters before they could run." Ahh, yes, tactics don't come into play apparantly except when they do. No true Scotsman would consider that 'tactics', at least not inherently interesting tactics.

I had a good laugh out of this as well: "Measured in squares, that’s 4 by 6, small enough that even a dwarf could stomp from one end of the room to the next in one move action. That’s doesn’t make for a very interesting encounter. If I tried to squeeze four or five monsters into each of those rooms, there would be barely enough room for the party and their foes to fit." So, how did the new 'more expansive' encounter work out? Mike reports: "The fight was a tense affair in the T-intersection between areas 8 and 9." In other words, the fight ended up taking place in an even smaller location of the map. Surprise, surprise, fights tend to occur in a choke points where movement is constricted, regardless of the rules you employ. Something to do with tactics, I think, and amazingly, tactics still seemed to have broke out in these small quarters.

I can see some younger, new to 3E, DMs having this problem, but to be frank that had more to do with thier lack of experience than the design of dungeons or the rules set. Dungeons designed under every rules set of the game have had the same sort of design that Mearls here is made to pretend is new for 4E, and newer groups of every edition needed time to start thinking of rooms in relation to neighboring locations. For example, it took me a while to realize as a starting out 12 year old DM, that noisy or smelly rooms (and events) ought to be detectable at some distance to both PC's and other monsters and not just when I read the boxed prepared text. This might be an interesting discussion of dungeon design, but fundamentally it has nothing to do with 4E.
 

It is an inherent rules problem if newbie DMs create encounters that seem cool, only to wind up TPK-ing their entire PC party because of the rules, cutting the adventure short. Just because "more experienced" DMs know work-arounds and how to jerry-rig the system to avoid the TPK isn't relevant to the fact that the RAW are broken. It's better to fix a problem that experienced DMs don't have, than to leave a flawed rules system in place.
 

Celebrim said:
I can see some younger, new to 3E, DMs having this problem, but to be frank that had more to do with thier lack of experience than the design of dungeons or the rules set. Dungeons designed under every rules set of the game have had the same sort of design that Mearls here is made to pretend is new for 4E, and newer groups of every edition needed time to start thinking of rooms in relation to neighboring locations. For example, it took me a while to realize as a starting out 12 year old DM, that noisy or smelly rooms (and events) ought to be detectable at some distance to both PC's and other monsters and not just when I read the boxed prepared text. This might be an interesting discussion of dungeon design, but fundamentally it has nothing to do with 4E.

Do you envision that this sort of material has a place within the DMG? Should the DMG contain rules for new DMs? By definition, such material would be useless to those who've been running games for a long time, but would be valuable material for new blood. One criticism of 3e has been the lack of accessibility for new players, would it be valid if 4e chose to put more emphasis on those aspects of the game, even at the cost to older players?
 

Some of us have never ran 2e, much less 1e dungeons. The article definitively spoke to me. Especially with how limited the spaces are in the dungeons.

Though ELs are not created equal. I've had a party take out a boss several levels above theirs with a Save or Die, and not two encounters earlier had been wiped out by carrion crawlers, an EL two under their level.
 

WizarDru said:
Do you envision that this sort of material has a place within the DMG?

Certainly. A well-written DMG should be a treasure trove of advice on the art of DMing. Naturally, this is most especially useful to a new DM.

Should the DMG contain rules for new DMs?

Here we come to the crux. As I've said before, we are in a fix, to the extent we are in a fix, mainly because the term 'rules' has been used way too loosely in 3E. Too many 3E players use the word 'rules' just as you are using it here - to mean all of the text in a rulebook. Just because it is in an RPG rulebook, doesn't make it rules. There is not a rule in 3E that characters must face 4 CR equivalent challenges in a day (or if there is, noone, and certainly not WotC has followed it). Rather, new DMs are advised to use this as a starting point. It's a good starting point, and its reasonably good advice so far as it goes, but its just a starting point.

But not only are there no rules which prevent a DM from designing encounters which might result in a TPK, there are no concievable set of rules, guidelines, or suggestions which would allow DMs to both challenge players and not (when misapplied) run the risk of a TPK. This isn't a rules problem because changes to the rules can't fix it. Regardless of what system they come up with, its always going to not take into account some aspect of party composition, some feature of the encounter terrain, some 'minor' enhancement with vast consequences, some unantipated synergy of monster abilities, some failure of the DM to impart information the designer assumed players had, some extreme tactical failure of neophyte players, and some encounter of a giving 'rating' will suddenly turn into a TPK and some future 4E DM is going to be showing up at Enworld going, 'What did I do wrong? According to the rules, a party of 3rd level characters should have been able to handle this, but then...'

There has never been a perfectly balanced game system in the history of the industry. It's ridiculous to imagine that with the right algorithm we are going to have a perfect system for balancing encounters.
 

Celebrim said:
The reason that this is important is that I'm extremely skeptical of the ability of any system to fix the real underlying problem here. We can do away with the CR/EL system entirely, but we are still going to have the problem that any simple algorithm for determining how hard an encounter is and what the reward should be is going to have points of failure. The new system is therefore likely to be as buggy as the old system.

By this reasoning, there's no point in ever making any changes to the system. We should all still be playing OD&D. Or Chainmail.

You seem to be missing one of the major points of the article - that the default assumptions for combat encounters have changed in 4E. It's widely acknowledged and agreed that 3E's CR/EL system breaks down when dealing with very large numbers of enemies. But 4E is being designed from the ground up to handle just that sort of combat, and that appeals to me.

And yes, I know that as a DM, I could wing it and build a big encounter for 3E. But that doesn't change the fact that working around a broken system is an unnecessary pain in the ass for a lot of people, and trying to change the system so it works better is a worthy design goal (though it remains to be seen how well it will actually work, of course).

I will say that I'm very skeptical about having special rules for "minions," though. If I want enemies which the players can drop in one hit, I can always just use weaker monsters.
 

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