Elder-Basilisk said:
Is it really widely acknowledged that the CR/EL system breaks down when dealing with very large numbers of enemies? I don't acknowledge that for numbers up to 20 or so. Designing encounters that involve multiple weaker enemies requires a bit of creativity, but if you do it well, the CR/EL system can give results that are roughly as good for mid-sized groups of foes as it does anywhere else.
I've seen it stated many times over the years, both here and at other forums. It's certainly been my experience, as well. The problem with building mass encounters in 3E is that, in order to add enough monsters to make it a "mass" battle, you have to make the monsters so weak that they're not much of a threat to the PCs anymore, even in a large group.
The CR/EL system says that 16 orcs are an EL 7 encounter. But are orcs, with their 5 hit points, 13 AC, and +4 attack bonus, really a threat to 7th level characters? The fighter can cleave through them with ease. The wizard can wipe out the whole horde with just a spell or two. Even the rogue isn't going to have much trouble.
And yes, I know that I could probably create a situation where the orcs ambush the PCs and use terrain advantages, traps, etc., to make the encounter a challenge. But the fact that I'd have to put a lot of work into an encounter that the CR/EL system says should be an appropriate challenge by default, tells me that the system doesn't handle this type of combat very well. And my experience with 7 years of playing 3.x D&D bears that out.
Elder-Basilisk said:
1. I don't much like the idea that first level characters can take on 20 goblins at once in a fair fight without too much challenge.
Who said there wouldn't be much challenge? Look, I know that these design & development articles are frustratingly vague, but inventing things that the developers didn't say only makes the problem worse.
Elder-Basilisk said:
2. Starting the power scale high also strains the credibility of a campaign world. If first level adventurers can take out dozens of goblins, how could they threaten the village? And if ordinary folks are so weak that the goblins are a threat, how do they survive in a world that also contains threats for 6th level characters in numbers great enough to generate 20 monster encounters on a regular basis? And, for that matter, how does the city watch or the town sheriff keep PCs in line? (Presumably PCs either get the invincible trait very early or (as is more likely since that is what happened in 1e and 2e which had the same official power difference between PCs and NPCs as the 20 goblins aren't too bad for first level adventurers but would wipe out a village scenario) published worlds will suddenly fill up with mid level PC types in law enforcement and authority positions, thus reversing the problem).
There are plenty of 3E campaign worlds that do this, too (I'm looking in your direction, Forgotten Realms).
Elder-Basilisk said:
Then again, maybe the ability to create logical and self-consistent campaign worlds in not a design value in 4.0--most everything I've seen in the previews seems to indicate that it's not a concern of the designers).
I seriously don't know where you're getting this.
