D&D 4E 4E - E6 System - Has anyone run it?

[vagabundo]

Well, the main reason I want to run E6 with 4E is that I've noticed that as we get to closer to Paragon Tier, the length of combat dramatically increases.

I can handle 45 minute combats, but when they start turning into 1.5-2 hours (which, in Paragon seems to be the norm...) is not good.

Unfortunately, I've been playing 4E since release and I honestly think they "failed" with the whole goal to find the sweet spot across all levels. They may have in _some_ ways, but in other ways (like combat time, etc...) they lost the sweet spot.

Here's the deal though, if you disagree with that, I don't wanna argue that in this thread. Start a new one, and I'll be happy to join you there.
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In this thread let's discuss:

I find that 6th level the PCs have a good amount of options, can perform their role well, and combat is about at that sweet spot.

I'm specifically looking for some experiences with it. If no one has run it, I guess that's cool - I'll just have to go into it with my own ideas.

I wonder how the E6 system would be impacted in 4E if you also gained additional powers of your level or lower...?

The combat time is a problem best resolved on the DM's side of the table. Rather than restrict player levels it might be best to tailor the encounter more to the party. Finding their encounter sweet spot is relatively easy and you can work from that. You could up monster damage and decrease monster HP. But tweaking pre-published encounter or being very careful what monsters you pop down in front if them is vital to a nice 30-40 minute contact time. Characters can do some awesome damage in the paragon tier.

A reasonably complicated combat take around 40 minutes to 1 hour for my group and that has stayed constant - they are slow messers and have a lot of OT talk when they should be deciding their characters next action.

I've had easy combat encounters take around 20 mins. And a mega Duergar Fortress one take 1.5 hours - it involved multiple encounters merging into one with wave after wave of Duergars being sent to their Dark Dwarfy Graves.

 

[ValhallaGH]

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In this thread let's discuss:

I find that 6th level the PCs have a good amount of options, can perform their role well, and combat is about at that sweet spot.

Well, that's not quantified, so I can't really discuss it.
I know players that will take at least 5 minutes to say "I hit him with my sword. I miss." If they have to do anything more complicated then it's usually 8 to 15 minutes per turn. That adds an hour or more to each combat, right there. So real-world combat length is extremely subjective.
If you'd said it takes X more rounds than it used to, then we'd have something to discuss regarding sweet spots.

As for powers, level 6 is when a PC is actually fun and interesting for an entire encounter. You've got just enough powers to do something different each round, you've usually got one (or more) powers that you can use out of turn, and you've usually got a couple of cool magic items to play with, ones that make for a much more interesting encounter.
So, good call on that point.

As for role, every PC I've seen could perform his role at level one. Most could do so well and consistently, and they all got better at it as they went up in level. So, that's a null point.

I'm specifically looking for some experiences with it. If no one has run it, I guess that's cool - I'll just have to go into it with my own ideas.

Sorry, haven't done it intentionally. Though, I've only played in one game that's gone past level 6....

I wonder how the E6 system would be impacted in 4E if you also gained additional powers of your level or lower...?

In addition to the powers you already had? Depends upon how quickly you gained them and how many you could have.
Actual effect? Minimal. Increased versatility, increased choice, but the powers picked upon initial progression are the best available for the character's style and tactics, so it wouldn't add anything directly. It could lead to some really impressive situational synergies, but would have much impact upon the system.
The flood of options and choices would cause many players to "lock up" as they try to figure out which option is the best in the given situation.

Good luck.

 

[Votan]

Well, the main reason I want to run E6 with 4E is that I've noticed that as we get to closer to Paragon Tier, the length of combat dramatically increases.

I can handle 45 minute combats, but when they start turning into 1.5-2 hours (which, in Paragon seems to be the norm...) is not good.

Unfortunately, I've been playing 4E since release and I honestly think they "failed" with the whole goal to find the sweet spot across all levels. They may have in _some_ ways, but in other ways (like combat time, etc...) they lost the sweet spot.

Here's the deal though, if you disagree with that, I don't wanna argue that in this thread. Start a new one, and I'll be happy to join you there.
-------
In this thread let's discuss:

I find that 6th level the PCs have a good amount of options, can perform their role well, and combat is about at that sweet spot.

I'm specifically looking for some experiences with it. If no one has run it, I guess that's cool - I'll just have to go into it with my own ideas.

I wonder how the E6 system would be impacted in 4E if you also gained additional powers of your level or lower...?

I wonder if the sweet spot for 4E would be E10 (10th level characters) rather than 6th?

 

[P1NBACK]

Well, that's not quantified, so I can't really discuss it.
I know players that will take at least 5 minutes to say "I hit him with my sword. I miss." If they have to do anything more complicated then it's usually 8 to 15 minutes per turn. That adds an hour or more to each combat, right there. So real-world combat length is extremely subjective.
If you'd said it takes X more rounds than it used to, then we'd have something to discuss regarding sweet spots.

Right. I think the real problem isn't so much with players taking a ton of time on their turn (at least not at my table), so much as condition-tracking, immediate actions and the bloated HP of monsters at Paragon.

As for powers, level 6 is when a PC is actually fun and interesting for an entire encounter. You've got just enough powers to do something different each round, you've usually got one (or more) powers that you can use out of turn, and you've usually got a couple of cool magic items to play with, ones that make for a much more interesting encounter.
So, good call on that point.

Yeah, I just went with the default of the E6 as it seemed like a good "heroic" spot for 4th Edition as well.

In addition to the powers you already had? Depends upon how quickly you gained them and how many you could have.
Actual effect? Minimal. Increased versatility, increased choice, but the powers picked upon initial progression are the best available for the character's style and tactics, so it wouldn't add anything directly. It could lead to some really impressive situational synergies, but would have much impact upon the system.
The flood of options and choices would cause many players to "lock up" as they try to figure out which option is the best in the given situation.

Good luck.

Yup. In addition to the powers you already had. I'm not sure how often they'd get the powers (probably less often than they get feats), but you're right - it could be problematic when faced with a slew of options.

 

[P1NBACK]

I wonder if the sweet spot for 4E would be E10 (10th level characters) rather than 6th?

Possibly. However, I think 10th might be too much. This is one of the reasons I was trying to see if anyone else had attempted E6 to see if they could offer insight into these little things, like what level to cap at and so on.

 

[Nytmare]

I'm pretty sure most of us have run through 6th level, so I hope that that limited experience is useful to you.

My vote, if you've got a problem with combat length, is to make shorter encounters. Lots of people ramp up damage, others ramp down hit points. My fix is to not make encounters that are chockablock full of elite and solo monsters that are above the party level.

E6 wasn't about keeping fights short, it was about keeping power levels away from 4th and 5th level spells.

 

[P1NBACK]

E6 wasn't about keeping fights short, it was about keeping power levels away from 4th and 5th level spells.

Good point. I'll reflect on this.

 

[mkill]

The reasons why combat takes forever are different between groups. You have to give us some more input so we can give useful suggestions.

How about taping one of your combats and uploading it on youtube? That should give us a clear picture.

The most basic measures involve effective bookkeeping:
- Print out power cards for all characters, make sure common circumstaces like dragonborn attack bonus for being bloodied are precalculated there
- Use a small whiteboard to keep track of initiative, monster hp and statuses
- Use poker chips or similar to show bloodied, marked etc on the battlefield
- Hand out little cards with the effects of dazed, stunned etc.

If you have beginners or casual players at the table, make sure their builds and power selections go for the straightforward and effective. Pick feats that are always-on. Optimize for role, i.e. make the striker a plain damage dealer, let the leader buff and heal. Don't overload with options (hybrid, multiclass). Pick daily and encounter powers that are standard actions with high damage or an easy to understand, powerful effect (heal, blind etc.). Don't pick classes / buils with complicated combo powers (i.e. Vestige Warlock).

Make sure beginners and undecided players understand basic tactics. Help with clear explanation without patronizing.
Good: "You're bleeding badly. You could use this power, as it would allow you to heal, or that one, as it's likely to kill that displacer beast and give you some breathing space."
Bad: "Oh c'mon, just attack it, you're always so ssllooowww...."

Monster choice: Don't be afraid to use lower-level monsters (party-2) in unimportant fights. They're easy to hit and die fast. This gives the PCs a chance to show off and feel awesome. They can still deal damage with a good hit, but they're not threatening unlessthe PCs roll very badly.
Most important: These fights give all players a chance to shine, try things out and build up confidence, so they won't be afraid to make decisions in tougher fights.

 

[Nifft]

While I have not run it, I suspect that 4E (out of the box) addresses many of the issues that E6 was addressing (high level spells such as fly and teleport, for example).

Yep. Especially if you...

Yeah, 4th Ed really covers most of the bases that E6 (basically 3.5 capped at level 6 for the unwashed masses) had problems with.

My initial take on 4th, from when the first little tidbits started leaking out, was that E6 would basically translate into a "Heroic Tier Only" campaign. I guess that's still pretty much what it'd be.

... limit your game to Heroic Tier.

I agree with these guys. 4e and E6 were both created in reaction to similar issues.

Cheers, -- N

 

[P1NBACK]

I think this thread has ran its course, because I'm not really interested in talking about my particular group's issue with speed. We use all the methods and more suggested above and it has very little impact on the actual time an encounter takes. Seriously, those suggests might save 10 minutes or so of overall encounter time. That means little when the average encounter takes 1-2 hours in Paragon Tier. That's just silly.

It's an inherent system issue and it's been beaten to death. I'll check out the threads on doubling damage and reducing HP or whatever.

Thanks for all the feedback.