D&D 4E 4e Gods with Stats
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Chris Knapp
First Post
Ones I remember . . .
Orcus - MM & E3
Demogorgon - MM2
Torog - Underdark
Vecna - Open Grave
Bahamut - Draconomicon 2
Tiamat - Draconomicon 1 & Dungeon 175
Yeenoghu (?) - Dragon Annual 2009
Lolth will be in MM3 supposedly.
Orcus - MM & E3
Demogorgon - MM2
Torog - Underdark
Vecna - Open Grave
Bahamut - Draconomicon 2
Tiamat - Draconomicon 1 & Dungeon 175
Yeenoghu (?) - Dragon Annual 2009
Lolth will be in MM3 supposedly.
Inyssius
First Post
These are demon lords, not gods. If we're counting Powers of any stripe, there's a much longer list.
There might be one more for Hellzon's kinda-sorta list, I think: Maglubiyet, servant of Bane (from the same source as Bane's exarchs). He was a fully-fledged god in his own right before Bane came for him, and he's still close.
Other than him, yeah, that's pretty much it.
darjr
I crit!
Well, not to you...
I kinda expect Asmodeus to be in The Plane Above
MortalPlague
Adventurer
Well played, sir.
On another tangent, I've long been considering a two or three session mini-adventure where the players roll up 30th level characters with the express purpose of taking on Vecna. I'd like to see how the gods actually play out.
It's kind of interesting (and part of where 4E is going back to ideas from 1E AD&D) that gods are given hit points, powers and count as legitimate encounters. It made the end of Queen of the Demonweb pits epic and it seems to be a good way to end a campaign (and nobody is too upset if it finishes with a TPK -- it is a god/goddess after all).
Hellzon
First Post
darjr
I crit!
Shemeska
Adventurer
It's not anything new to 4e though. 3e had two whole books with deific statblocks (though this approach was at the time often derided), so it's interesting to see this viewed as a positive thing with 4e.
Echohawk
Shirokinukatsukami fan
I'm comfortable with Underdark including one stat block for a deity (Torog) for use in an epic-level campaign. But a whole book full of deific statblocks would not appeal (in either 3e or 4e).
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'm a fan of deity stats, but 3e's book was un-usable. Vast pagecount taken up by CR 50 + twinked un-slay-able uber-characters, and two paragraphs about the priests.
4e's gods you are expected to actually use in a fight. Which I appreciate.
I'm a fan of deity stats, but 3e's book was un-usable. Vast pagecount taken up by CR 50 + twinked un-slay-able uber-characters, and two paragraphs about the priests.
4e's gods you are expected to actually use in a fight. Which I appreciate.
Yes, 3e's "Here are the stats - but don't use them!" approach was not good. 1e had a similar problem, though IME many 1e deities felt too weak, not too strong, being very easy to kill by high level PCs. A few with special not-die powers like Druaga and Hel did earn places of respect IMC, though.
There are two traditions with Fantasy Deities.
1) I see this as the Michael Moorcock approach where it is possible for a great (i.e. epic) heart to fight with dieities and win (with the right items and trickery). Think of Corum using the hand of Kwill to destroy the heart of Arioch in the Knight of Swords.
Or, for a more modern example, see Steven Erikson's works were deities have human foibles and can actually die.
Or Glen Cook has taken this tack in several books. Even Tolkien nodded to this tradition when the elf king Fingolfin maimed Melkor.
Stat blocks for deities make sense in this tradition of fantasy.
2) Deities are eternal principles or beings of vast power. They are beyond human comprehension or knowledge. They cannot be directly attacked by mortal beings.
This too has a strong fantasy tradition; often from myth and legend.
You can pick which ones makes for a better world for your characters. But I like the idea that Deities are major challenges even for 30th level characters and the 4E system would not work without the level cap (otherwise they could become trivial challenges, which they should never be).
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I started play in the 2e era, so I know that edition approached gods as un-slay-able, which was fine. I liked how they were linked to eternal concepts, and could only die if you killed the worshipers, making killing a god equivalent to some sort of fantasy genocide.
But gods that can die by dint of your fist in their craw feels more epic to me, and it hits the sweet spot of legendary awesome that I look for.I'm kind of against what Scales of War did when the concept died with the deity, however. It kind of forces your hand as a DM, and goes against that epic feel. When Osiris died, it didn't end the idea of a leadership, it just passed on to the next god!
Anyway, yes, I look forward to the day when my players can take out their frustrations on some divine flesh.
Interestingly, D&D 4e tries to have it both ways. The DMG (ch 9) describes gods as made up of astral essence, immaterial and located in multiple places at once, etc - but , if (i) a god chooses to take physical form, and (ii) the right rituals are performed to bind a god to that physical form, then the god can be killed by mortal heroes.
I think the solution is to pick which version of fantasy deities makes more sense in your world and stick with it. There are lots of interesting stories about Gods dying or being injured (Ragnarok in Norse myth, Celtic myths, Tolkien, Moorcock, Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms . . .) so that approach can be quote interesting. It also fits with 4th edition better so you no longer have to explain how a "defeatable" being can grant thousands of spells to clerics on a daily basis.
Yeah, it wouldn't work for me either. I still think of Tiamat as merely Queen of Evil Dragons per MM1, even if she has more than 48 hit points these days.
I suppose I'd be ok with a temporary lessening off greed until the Multiverse adjusted.
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