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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4283096" data-attributes="member: 2067">I'm cutting most of what I agree with for brevity's sake. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Not really, or at least, that's not really my intention.3e was more of a toolbox than 4e is. 4e is more of a "packaged" deal than 3e was. 4e comes ready to eat. Faster, more convenient, easier to spread. These are very much the notions behind fast food: get it fast, get it easy, make it standardized so that people know what to expect. To a certain extent, this follows with the Wii -- it is easy, it is catchy, it is efficient. You don't need much depth to play Wii Fit. In the food respect, because 3e is more of a toolbox, its more like unmolded, raw ingredients. This was part of its appeal, and also one of its flaws, kind of in the same way home cookin' looses out to fast food: it's not convenient, it creates very different games, and it is hard to spread because it requires an investment of time and effort, and can be more uneven. To a certain extent, this matches Linux -- it requires an involvement, a special knowledge, and a willingness to put in time and effort above and beyond normal to pick it up (even if it ain't much). That's not exclusive, of course. Its a continuum. 3e had pre-packaged rules bits (especially late in the game). 4e can put up with house rules and add-ons. In my view, this is far too binary of a way to approach the Heisenberg Uncertainty Points. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Or, for that matter, anything about 3e or 4e relative to each other. It's not a switch that you flip, it's a slight nudge of focus. 3e HP's can be fate points, and 4e HP's can be literal toughness, each when they need to be. 4e perhaps does a better job of stating and working with the notion that they aren't ALWAYS toughness, which is good, but hardly a revolution.The vast majority of the game is a nudge in a different direction, not an overhaul. The nudge just occured at a very basic level. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Well, there's a bone of contention. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> The thing is that if you're right 4e HASN'T shifted more towards casual, then every point about 4e being easier, simpler, quicker, etc. is actually exceptionally misleading, because its just DIFFERENTLY hardcore (party dynamics and one-word ability interactions and the like are, if they are important, going to require a whole lot of attention).If you're wrong, and 4e HAS shifted more towards casual, than that meshes with the reviews and the opinions, but it also means that it can't be too hardcore, because then one-word ability choices and an inability to quickly comprehend interactions between powers would routinely bone a party.Right now, I've only experienced low-level 4e, which has its annoying complexities, but is mostly simple...a lot like low-level 3e (but less "get hit and die or hit and win", which I like). I don't see 4e as particularly complex. You move enemies near the guys who hit them hard and away from the softies. You inflict ailments that give the bad guys less turns. Your primary concern is damage, as much as you can dish out, of whatever type causes it. Every choice you make in the game will do one of those three things, sometimes more than one of them at once. The only way that could be made especially hardcore is if the DM became antagonistic and gave you purposefully difficult and unusual encounters, which would still scare away newbies on both sides of the screen (players who couldn't cut it and DMs who couldn't understand the subtleties of those one-word interactions and party dynamics). So here's the thing: Either the cake is a lie and 4e really is as complex and obnoxiously stringent as 3e was (but in a different way), or its not, the cake is truth, and it will loose one of the things that drew certain people to 3e.But regardless of that outcome, 4e is still less of a toolbox than 3e was, and that has already alienated some people.And abandoning 3e and telling those people to play 4e is a little bit like forcing Linux users to post to ENWorld using the Wii: it doesn't do what they want it to do, and they can't use what they want to use anymore because there's nothing to support it. Fortunately, its not quite that dire, thanks to Pathfinder at least, but this is what some people might be feeling when they aren't interested in 4e.</blockquote>

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