D&D 3E/3.5 4e Levels 1-30 = 3e Levels 1-30?

[Mad Mac]

There's just not enough information to say one way or the other. The Monster Podcast was interesting, though. Even accounting for level scaling, it seems a lot of monsters are designed to face higher level characters than before. Working of memory, you had..

3rd level Characters facing a single young white dragon or an equal number of hobgoblins.

An Owlbear as an elite heavy hitter vs 8th level characters. That's a big jump from being a mediocre monster vs 4th level characters.

You also had a Werewolf (CR3) and a Satyr (CR 2-4) vs the same party.

You had a Bone Devil as an elite leader of about 17th level, as opposed to being a CR 9 monster in 3rd edition.

It looks to me like the monsters are being dispersed over a greater number of levels than before. If a mere bone devil is 17th level, than a Balor has to be an Epic (20+) level threat.

On the other hand, you have Orcus in the first Monster Manual, who is undoubtedly an epic threat in both editions. So in terms of players vs monsters, you'll probably see a fairly even progression of monsters up to level 30, rather than 90% of monsters being 20 level or under, with a smattering of tacked on monsters for epic levels. The added levels should feel better integrated this way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Vicar!

The hp inflation increased in 3E when compared to 2E, will there be a similar increase in 4E?

Reading between the lines...yes.

Remember that the Ancient Red Dragon in the example a few weeks ago had 1000 (or more hit points). Thats more than +50% greater than a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in 3.5.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Frank!

Well, I expect that 4E will put the venture back into adventure, so expect less 'portation.

Raise Dead: I bet around 10th, they want players to be able to keep thier 'build'.
Teleport: 10+ for a version that will work to certain points. It can get you back to a town you have been to, but I guarentee you it won't be giving you a longshot chance to skip the dungeon and go directly to the BBEG.
Plane Shift 20+ and it will be willing targets only
Wish / Miracle: Gone as a spell or the last spell level there is with a LOT more limits than even 3e's wish. maybe a new spell will be made to undo major misfortune.

I disagree with pretty much everything you have listed.

Raise Dead: 21st
Teleport: 21st
Plane Shift: 11th...noting that they have said the Paragon tier is when Planar adventures happen.
Wish/Miracle: 30th
Fly: 11th

 

[Celebrim]

There's just not enough information to say one way or the other. The Monster Podcast was interesting, though. Even accounting for level scaling, it seems a lot of monsters are designed to face higher level characters than before. Working of memory, you had..

3rd level Characters facing a single young white dragon or an equal number of hobgoblins.

An Owlbear as an elite heavy hitter vs 8th level characters. That's a big jump from being a mediocre monster vs 4th level characters.

You also had a Werewolf (CR3) and a Satyr (CR 2-4) vs the same party.

You had a Bone Devil as an elite leader of about 17th level, as opposed to being a CR 9 monster in 3rd edition.

My impression of the way monsters work is that there is some sort of table that looks something like this:

Monster Level 1: Hit Points: 4, AC: 12, Fort: 10, Reflex 10, Will: 10, Attack Bonus: +1, etc.
Monster Level 2: Hit Points: 10, AC: 14, Fort: 12, Reflex, 12, Will: 12, Attack Bonus: +3, etc.
...
Monster Level 15: Hit Points: 250, AC: 25, Fort: 18, Reflex: 18, Will: 18, Attack Bonus: +14, etc.

Monsters don't have fixed HD any more. To a certain extent, I don't think that they have fixed stats anymore.

If you want a Bone Devil, you can pick a 17th level monster, add the Bone Devil abilities much like a template, and maybe give it the 'Skirmisher' or 'Mastermind' class as appropriate again much as a template. Or you can do the same thing with a 9th level monster.

The MM entries probably have a range of common or suggested monster levels and classes for each monster.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Mad Mac!

There's just not enough information to say one way or the other. The Monster Podcast was interesting, though. Even accounting for level scaling, it seems a lot of monsters are designed to face higher level characters than before. Working of memory, you had..

3rd level Characters facing a single young white dragon or an equal number of hobgoblins.

An Owlbear as an elite heavy hitter vs 8th level characters. That's a big jump from being a mediocre monster vs 4th level characters.

You also had a Werewolf (CR3) and a Satyr (CR 2-4) vs the same party.

You had a Bone Devil as an elite leader of about 17th level, as opposed to being a CR 9 monster in 3rd edition.

It looks to me like the monsters are being dispersed over a greater number of levels than before. If a mere bone devil is 17th level, than a Balor has to be an Epic (20+) level threat.

On the other hand, you have Orcus in the first Monster Manual, who is undoubtedly an epic threat in both editions. So in terms of players vs monsters, you'll probably see a fairly even progression of monsters up to level 30, rather than 90% of monsters being 20 level or under, with a smattering of tacked on monsters for epic levels. The added levels should feel better integrated this way.

The difference between 3E CR and 4E level seem fairly straightforward.

Treat 4E level as 3E ECL (roughly CR x 1.5) for typical monsters (Minions, Elites and Bosses aside).

I would expect the Balor would be Level 30 or thereabouts, as will Orcus.

The difference of course is that Orcus will be a Level 30 Boss (designed to be fought on his own) whereas the Balor will be a Level 30 'brute?' (designed to be fought in numbers equal to the party).

 

[Nebulous]

The difference of course is that Orcus will be a Level 30 Boss (designed to be fought on his own) whereas the Balor will be a Level 30 'brute?' (designed to be fought in numbers equal to the party).

Just to clarify, have they actually announced a "Boss" category?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Nebulous!

Just to clarify, have they actually announced a "Boss" category?

I don't know what its called but they have certainly announced that some monsters (such as Dragons for instance) are to be fought individually, rather than the new rule of 1 monster per party member.

Minion 4:1 Party Member
'Standard' 1:1 Party Member
Elite 1:2 Party Members
'Boss' 1:5 Party Members

 

[Mercule]

Honestly, when it comes to comparisons, the maths will be so different there'll be no direct comparison.

The question to ask is: at what levels do the game-changing magics come online?

Yup. The math is incredibly minor, IMO, compared to those effects.

 

[Nifft]

Yup. The math is incredibly minor, IMO, compared to those effects.

I'd say they are both significant, and combine with transient buffs to form a trifecta of unmanageable complication.

"What's your Will save?"
"Mind blank, punk!"
"I dispel'd that last round."
"Oh right, in that case it's 14, plus bless--"
"Not a Fear effect."
"--okay, uh, is it an Enchantment?"
"Yes."
"So plus Still Mind, that's..."

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mad Mac]

My Impression is that the "monster level charts" will mostly exist as a design tool. The designer blogs seem to suggest that there are a range of stats for each level and type (5th level Brute) for example, and those are used as a starting point before polishing the monster stats to give it character and adding special abilities.

I'm quite sure that the individual Monsters in the MM will all have playable stats "out of the box". There will probably be, however, a large number of different hobgoblins and other common monsters, as well as guidelines for moving them up and down levels.

When James Wyatt was doing the "speed encounter build challenge" he was pulling monsters straight out of the book based on level and terrain. He didn't say anything like "Ok, 15th level characters, so we'll make the Bone Devil 15th level." It was more like "Ooh! Bone Devil! Gotta use it!...eh...but it's level 17...it doesn't have to be a fair fight, right?"