D&D 4E 4E needs monsters between minion and "normal"
- Thread starter zoroaster100
- Start date
Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
I love this option. Very nice!
An idea I've considered, but never implemented, is using their constitution score as their hitpoints. For example, a kobold minion having 12 hitpoints (which would, in essence, just follow the 1 hit bloodied, 2 hits dead - or even 1 hit dead idea). Or the Ogre Thug minion, with 21 hitpoints. For level 11 characters that might be the same as a 1 hit kill, but there's always the chance it wouldn't be. As is, so far, I've found minions die far to easy when a dragonborn or a wizard targets them. They provide XP but absolutely no threat. Sure, some creatures get mob attacks. But they have to LIVE long enough to use those mob attacks. A scorching burst would *probably* not be able to kill 9 squares of Kobold minions with 12 hitpoints, but a second scorching burst most likely would. EDIT: And this would also allow removal of that "minions take no damage from a miss even if it's a nuclear bomb you missed them with" rule.
Like I said, I've never implemented the idea. But I do think something needs to be done. As it is, I just pretty much avoid using minions unless there's a real tactical advantage in numbers (like the kobold ability to get a +1 to hit per adjacent allies).
Like I said, I've never implemented the idea. But I do think something needs to be done. As it is, I just pretty much avoid using minions unless there's a real tactical advantage in numbers (like the kobold ability to get a +1 to hit per adjacent allies).
Last edited:
Drkfathr1
First Post
I also like the idea of reducing the XP value of minions, instead of them being worth 1/4 a normal monster, they're worth more like 1/8. Minions are way too easy to kill and provide too much XP. Maybe Minions at higher levels shouldn't be worth any XP. Maybe enact a rule similar to what 3ED did, so that PC's with a level "x" amount above a monster, receive no XP for defeating it.
I'll probably not use minions all that often, they're a little too easy to deal with, but the above suggestions of using regular monsters at level -4 is a great idea for slightly more satisfying "mooks".
I'll probably not use minions all that often, they're a little too easy to deal with, but the above suggestions of using regular monsters at level -4 is a great idea for slightly more satisfying "mooks".
This is a weird issue because a decent portion of people report that every fight in 4e takes them two-plus hours to wrap up even after it's clear who won, while another decent portion of people report that combats are always fast and furious and finish nicely for them, while yet another decent portion of people report that combat is usually fast and and furious except when it's against a solo monster, which is when it turns into a two-plus hour mop-up.
Me, I'm firmly in the "Every fight is so frickin long" camp. I have fixed this by having everybody do automatic maximum damage without rolling for it (and double on crits). For our group, this has turned combat into a fast, furious, dangerous and strategic thing where a wipe is always around the corner if you're not paying attention, while still not being or feeling broken in any way. I recommend it if your players get excited over the idea of actual dangerous combat (I think we can generally agree that regular 4e combat isn't actually that dangerous for the players, although some people won't of course) and take the idea of a possible wipe as a personal challenge to beat.
At first my players were hesitant about the idea of not rolling for damage ("It makes me a little sad," one of them said), but after I convinced them to try it for one session, the combats' speed and general feel improved SO MUCH that we immediately adopted them.
This also has the effect of turning level-3 and level-4 monsters into "improved minions" right off, one hit to bloody, another hit to kill. I think the improved minion idea is fantastic though, if you're not doing max damage then I recommend doing that for sure.
Me, I'm firmly in the "Every fight is so frickin long" camp. I have fixed this by having everybody do automatic maximum damage without rolling for it (and double on crits). For our group, this has turned combat into a fast, furious, dangerous and strategic thing where a wipe is always around the corner if you're not paying attention, while still not being or feeling broken in any way. I recommend it if your players get excited over the idea of actual dangerous combat (I think we can generally agree that regular 4e combat isn't actually that dangerous for the players, although some people won't of course) and take the idea of a possible wipe as a personal challenge to beat.
At first my players were hesitant about the idea of not rolling for damage ("It makes me a little sad," one of them said), but after I convinced them to try it for one session, the combats' speed and general feel improved SO MUCH that we immediately adopted them.
This also has the effect of turning level-3 and level-4 monsters into "improved minions" right off, one hit to bloody, another hit to kill. I think the improved minion idea is fantastic though, if you're not doing max damage then I recommend doing that for sure.
Minions... got your minions, here!
Greetings...
I haven't played the 4e system that long, and I can say that I am presently firmly in the "combat... geez, there goes the gaming session" camp.
Of course, some of this is my fault.
In my games, I treat minions just like the normal creatures. Not for hit-points, skills, and the like, but for presentation. What this means is that minions are generally indistinguishable from the normal creatures in combat.
Now, it might be possible to tell just who the solos and elites are (better weapons, armor, and powers can be very revealing), there is really no way to distinguish a 'normal' creature from a 'minion' at first glance.
This prevents characters from targetting minions just because their minions (takes the ones over here out first, they've only got one hit point!), and makes every opponent a potential danger.
Further masking is performed by having some normal monsters gain the ability to resist some forms of 'miss damage'; this way the characters cannot assume minion status just because their miss effect didn't kill the creature.
I also mask some damage results. If a character has a miss effect that does damage, I always determine that damage. I am overly fond of announcing that a particular opponent "takes that much damage (scribble... scribble... scribble)" and not always revealing just how much damage is done. This way, when an attack does less damage (damage reduction? resists?), it doesn't come as a great surprise. So, if a character were to do a miss effect, get the "ahh.. you do.. that much... damage", and the creature didn't die, they have no way of knowing if it is because of some type of resistance, the creature having more hit points than expected, or me scribbling down "0 damage" because it was a minion.
Keep in mind that in my campaigns (from 1e on up), I don't always announce hidden special effects. There are some effects that can become obvious (tossing flame effects at fire demons is never a good idea), and some effects are only noticed by the perceptive players/characters (wait... don't use lightning! I suspect that lightning doesn't effect it, or might even make it stronger... not even the hair of this thing is singed when I use it...).
These are just a few ways that minions can become more of a challenge. The down side is that challenging minions will generally extend combat time.
Giving extra hit points to minions is not that bad of an idea, as long as the hit points aren't overwhelming. Giving minions hit points equal to their CON score plus their level (or twice their level) often approximates the one-hit wonders that they are.
I do not reduce the experience that minions give any further simply because minions are treated as regular opponents by the party; they never know when a creature is 'just a minion'.
Just my three cents - which I expect back.
Until that time...
Greetings...
I haven't played the 4e system that long, and I can say that I am presently firmly in the "combat... geez, there goes the gaming session" camp.
Of course, some of this is my fault.
In my games, I treat minions just like the normal creatures. Not for hit-points, skills, and the like, but for presentation. What this means is that minions are generally indistinguishable from the normal creatures in combat.
Now, it might be possible to tell just who the solos and elites are (better weapons, armor, and powers can be very revealing), there is really no way to distinguish a 'normal' creature from a 'minion' at first glance.
This prevents characters from targetting minions just because their minions (takes the ones over here out first, they've only got one hit point!), and makes every opponent a potential danger.
Further masking is performed by having some normal monsters gain the ability to resist some forms of 'miss damage'; this way the characters cannot assume minion status just because their miss effect didn't kill the creature.
I also mask some damage results. If a character has a miss effect that does damage, I always determine that damage. I am overly fond of announcing that a particular opponent "takes that much damage (scribble... scribble... scribble)" and not always revealing just how much damage is done. This way, when an attack does less damage (damage reduction? resists?), it doesn't come as a great surprise. So, if a character were to do a miss effect, get the "ahh.. you do.. that much... damage", and the creature didn't die, they have no way of knowing if it is because of some type of resistance, the creature having more hit points than expected, or me scribbling down "0 damage" because it was a minion.
Keep in mind that in my campaigns (from 1e on up), I don't always announce hidden special effects. There are some effects that can become obvious (tossing flame effects at fire demons is never a good idea), and some effects are only noticed by the perceptive players/characters (wait... don't use lightning! I suspect that lightning doesn't effect it, or might even make it stronger... not even the hair of this thing is singed when I use it...).
These are just a few ways that minions can become more of a challenge. The down side is that challenging minions will generally extend combat time.
Giving extra hit points to minions is not that bad of an idea, as long as the hit points aren't overwhelming. Giving minions hit points equal to their CON score plus their level (or twice their level) often approximates the one-hit wonders that they are.
I do not reduce the experience that minions give any further simply because minions are treated as regular opponents by the party; they never know when a creature is 'just a minion'.
Just my three cents - which I expect back.
Until that time...
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