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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SlyDoubt" data-source="post: 5441127" data-attributes="member: 6667337">I've run 4E and I like how easy it is to get going. As a DM I think 90% of us would mechanically say 4E is preferred over PF. But I've never run things as the book states it exactly or always using grids and minis. This is my main problem with 4E. I feel a lot more restricted as a DM to that specific format; one myself and players never used too often except when necessary.3.x/PF is a complex load of stuff. But imho it's more of a toolbox than a system like 4E feels. 4E feels rigid. It's very streamlined and simple to understand but gosh is it rigid. It really depends on the players and what they expect. If they're going to take everything to the limit and are rule nazis PF is going to be difficult unless everyone is extremely well versed in it. Conversely if your players don't care as much for that end of things I think 3.x/PF does a better job than 4e. I feel 4e lacks any bit of reality, it feels wholly gamey to me and my players. We all began with 3E at the same time and played it for many years so that may be why. Honestly though both systems are fine as both player and DM. I really don't agree with the constant '3.x/PF is fine to play but terrible to DM'. Well, that's your fault honestly. You made it more difficult than it had to be. We're talking about pen and paper RPGs here and honestly the only things that matter are player/DM trust when it comes to rules. The rules are there to make sense of action/encounters, not to get in the way of them. If they do, PF is pretty understandable once you get the underlining mechanics and you can do things on the spot (I suppose this takes experience...).For a group of new players and DM I'd say either is completely fine. For a new DM and experienced players PF will be difficult if the players focus on mechanics. 4E could still turn out fine though due to the rigidness of the system, the DM can't really go wrong except for making uninteresting encounters (takes experience to change that). Conversely I don't find 4E that interesting for me as an experienced 3.x/PF DM. I feel restricted.Both rule and really it's just up to your type of DM/group. Pathfinder could be much quicker or 10x slower depending. It can be quicker because often there's less real world conversion (in my experience) to game mechanics. Or the conversion is what you'd probably rule on the fly. 4E in comparison requires more thought in figuring out how to stat things up suddenly due to how powers can interact and confuse things (for me).Just presenting an alternative to the usual "I'd play 3.x/PF but not DM" statement.</blockquote>

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