D&D 4E [4E Players, mainly] Ever thought of defecting to Pathfinder?

Mercurius

Legend
WotC's recent....behavior, coupled with what feels like a couple years of winding down and even death spiraling, inspired a recurrent thought to arise in my head with a bit more force than usual: Maybe I should consider Pathfinder?

Now before you get in a tiff and cry "Edition War!" let me explain. I haven't played anything 3.x for six or seven years and have happily enjoyed 4E for the last two. I liked 3.x and like 4E more. I own the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, the Gamemastery Guide, the Campaign Setting and most of the Chronicles (I don't plan on running Golarion but am a setting junky and enjoy reading about it). But I don't feel like I know the Pathfinder system well enough to form an erudite opinion on its merits and demerits, or even how it differs from 3.5.

I haven't seriously considered switching to Pathfinder before because A) I like 4E, B) my group of casual players are all used to it and it would probably take a bit of convincing to switch, and C) There are certain things about 3.x that I don't miss, especially the emphasis on "system mastery" and the workload involved in DM preparation, both elements which I'm pretty sure Pathfinder hasn't drastically changed.

The more I've gotten to know 4E, the more I've appreciated it as a whole, and continue to dabble with ideas on how to "perfect it" to my tastes, into my own "5E". But I haven't yet mustered up the time and energy to do it, or at least get beyond the dabbling phase.

So why Pathfinder? If I like 4E well enough and my group is fine with it, why switch to something else? Well, let's put it this way: we vote with our dollar; in the RPG business, where diehard gamers buy books that they never play (guilty as charged), it goes a step beyond that and we vote with not only our ca$h but our dice rolls - which games we choose to spend our precious time on. One would hope that the game's company that one gives their money and dedicates their time to play, is a company worth supporting.

WotC is hardly Monsanto, but I can say that I honestly question the direction they are going in. I feel that they have made and continue to make poor choices, especially in the realm of communication with their fan-base, with a succession of seemingly never ending and compounded bad moves. Paizo, on the other hand, has impressed me with just about everything about their business - they seem to be a stand-up company from top to bottom, and an exemplar of what an RPG company should be like. Their love of the game seeps into their products; this is not to say that the folks at WotC don't love the game, but that it has a kind of taint to it, a combination of their flawed PR (to put it mildly) and Hasbro's corporate patina.

Before you accuse me of being a primadonna, please understand that at this point this is only an idea, a thought, a speculation. Furthermore, I don't have a huge emotional charge about this either way--I am not angry with WotC or feel personally slighted, I just don't have a lot of faith in the direction they are steering the ship or much respect for them as a company. That said, I hope that this lack of faith and respect will proven to be misplaced, that their recent assertion that they want better communication and customer feedback is authentic and will result in follow-through. The proof will be in the black pudding.

Finally, just to be clear: I will continue to purchase both WotC and Paizo products (as well as those of other companies). I am a fan of RPGs, a casual collector, and don't have any plans of getting out of the game. I am more talking about how I want to spend my time, which game (or version of the game) I want to play - and, by default, which I want to support on not just an economic level, but a "psychic" level.

Now to you. Have you thought seriously about "defecting" to Pathfinder or another edition of D&D or game altogether? (I have also considered Savage Worlds or Star Wars Saga or numerous other games, but my group and I are all a bit hooked on D&D, at least at the moment). Have you been questioning WotC and thought of switching to a different game in order to support a company that you respect more? What is your experience?
 

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Aegeri

First Post
Pathfinder is pretty much everything I hated about 3.5 but repackaged, so I have no interest in it whatsoever and so it is literally the last thing I would ever want to play. If Wizards does drop the ball with 4E I will either wait and see how another 4E-like replacement goes (5th edition?), or just play 4E until I eventually decide to move on (or I can't find anyone who wants to play 4E). It is most likely I will go back to playing Call of Cthulhu for my tabletop fix, which has always been my RPG of choice when I haven't been playing DnD. It's a testament to 4E and how much I do enjoy it that I am not running any Call of Cthulhu right now.
 

Jack99

Adventurer
Why on earth would I stop playing 4e (that I enjoy immensely) and switch to what IMO is a vastly inferior product?

Out of spite because WotC have had to cut back?

I am 36, not 5 years old.

Edit: in case the above was not clear:

I will always support the company that makes the game I prefer and play. Their business decisions are not personal slights to me, and should they stop making good products altogether, I would just stop buying. But switching game system? There is only one reason to do that - if you are switching to a better system.
 
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thewok

First Post
I'm kind of with Aegeri. I was happy when 4E came along because there were so many things in 3E that just started to irk the hell out of me. So, if I were to go back, it wouldn't be to Pathfinder, but to a heavily modified version of 3E that completely removes skill points in favor of a 4E/Saga skill system (among other changes). Maybe even EQ2RPG, which I always wanted to play, but for which I could never find a group.

I like Saga Edition, and I like Shadowrun 4E. That's pretty much it. I have WoD stuff, but I've found that I don't like running it very much.

D&D 4E is my favorite system at the moment. I don't share your assessment of WotC (death spiraling?), but even if they were to stop providing material for 4E, I'd still play it. It would just take a bit longer to make a character.
 

samursus

Explorer
Interesting question, and I won't take it in any way except the spirit it was intended. Short answer: No, a thousand times, no.

I left D&D after trying 3.0 and then 3.5. After being weaned on B/E then BECMI, I dabbled in 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D. I just didn't have the time to DM 3.5 and the IMO train wreck it became. I hated the CoDZilla and iterative attacks. I hated trying to run monsters that had the same stat block as PC's. I hated the X-mas tree effect.

I love 4e, and Essentials. I know its not for everyone, but for me, its what brought me back to D&D as a paying customer after 7 or so years of nothing.

Now, I have nothing against Paizo. I like their AP's and have bought a couple game aid products from them. I have a bit of a pet peeve with something:

rant\

Certain gamers keep holding up Paizo as some sort of RPG messiah. They are a company. A business. Whose recent success is built upon the effort and money of the company that everyone loves to demonize. Like other's have said better than I, give them time... they will eventually piss off some of their fan base. They are in it to make money. Sure, I believe you when you say they love what they do. Well, guess what... so do the people at WotC. You don't get into this field to make big money, or have job security. I am happy at their success, but hardly think they are the innovators or driving force behind the hobby. For that you need someone to take risks, bring in new players and new ideas. And sometimes those risks don't pan out. I don't know if thats the case with WotC (truthfully, no one on here knows, or is willing to talk) but ultimately I am willing to wait and see before I jump ship. If there was no WotC, there would have been no Paizo.

/rant
 
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Wow, the OP is pretty much spot on for how I feel now. I've had a bit more pressure actually to move to Pathfinder; I have two regular groups, one which favors 4E and another which favors Pathfinder, so I effectively run both systems. I actually find this a bit tough; call it wiring if you will, but I rather prefer to have one ruleset to focus on in a genre at a time, and when the two are so similar in terminology and style yet so different in application it can be kind of maddening to juggle.

Anyway, I decided to focus more on Pathfinder this year, and this absolute PR disaster that WotC initiated has left me feeling like I made the right choice. I'm also not an advocate of turning D&D in to a digital experience with lots of collectibe card support, so unless WotC announces something akin to what Neogrognard proposed at the D&D Experience later this month, I am having a hard time of seeing why I shouldn't just continue to offer my gaming dollars to Paizo first.....although like you, I too will still buy actual books for D&D that WotC does release, as I still enjoy them and frankly still would like to play D&D, even if it seems like WotC is ramping up a strategy opposed to my presence as a gamer who prefers that his RPGs come in dead tree editions.
 

blalien

First Post
I'm not even thinking of other DM projects until we finish Pyramid of Shadows in like, April, and at that point I'm going to be burned on dungeon crawlers. I'm thinking of designing GURPS Mass Effect. Maybe something like Ocean's 11 but with asari commandos.

Wizards' recent problems does not reflect on the quality of the content released so far. Unless I was starved for new content (and I'm not), I don't see a reason to pick up another swords and sorcery RPG.
 

Dausuul

Legend
No. Sorry, but no. I think Paizo did an excellent job with Pathfinder within the constraints they were working under--namely, the need for backward compatibility with 3.5E--and I'd be happy to give it a whirl as a player, but as a DM? Never. The core of Pathfinder is still 3E, and I have no intention of picking up that load again. I'd go back to BECMI or AD&D first.

If 4E tanks, I will continue to run it as long as I have someone to play it. If I can no longer find 4E players, I'll start looking into retro-clones, or just run a massively house-ruled BECMI. If the only thing anyone will play is Pathfinder, I'll hang up the DM's screen and roll up a character.

(I will add that for all WotC's recent botches and lurches as a corporation, much of the actual content they've been releasing has been stellar. I love Essentials and am champing at the bit for more. I can only hope that quality pulls them out of what I strongly suspect is a severe tailspin.)
 
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darjr

I crit!
I like 4e, I even like the ideas that went into essentials. I didn't buy any of of the essentials books. I'm not sure why, though now I wouldn't buy any cause I'm no longer going to play 4e. I did suffer from a strong sense of buyers remorse over having DDI and purchasing the earlier books that had heavy crunch in them.

That whole time I was still playing 3.5, and then Pathfinder. I think Pathfinder and some other games will get a big boost in play time. I can't really explain how I felt when I decided to not play or run 4e anymore. It's like the day I realized I wouldn't have Football practice anymore. I love playing Football, but practice is mostly a chore. Now I play Football for recreation only.

The last day I enjoyed running 4e I was at a convention, I ran a game and had fun, then I ran a Traveller game wherein the players ended up drifting through space using their own bodies as scaffolding while protecting precious cargo and acting very much like a slow moving gun platform to outsmart and outfight ship raiders. Then I ran another session of 4e and was bored out of my freaking mind. I can't tell you what happened in any of those 4e games in any great detail, I barely remember them, but the Metamorphosis Alpha 1e and Traveller and Fantasy Trip and GURPS games I remember like they just happened.
 

KahnyaGnorc

First Post
There are some things I prefer about 3rd Ed than 4th Ed (freedom of character building, more daring options, and, as I've posted before, the greater freedom in racial choices, including large-sized races) and some things I prefer 4th Ed over 3rd Ed (the lack of just "I attack," especially for spellcasters, not having to choose between utility and attacks, especially for healers). If I could combine the freedom at character creation and leveling up of 3rd Ed (and the Psychic Warrior, love that class) with the freedom during combat and refined skill system of 4th Ed, then I'd be very happy.

In short, I like both systems. If it wasn't for money constraints, I'd probably already have the Pathfinder books.
 

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