D&D 4E 4e powers and unfun moments

[Old Gumphrey]

Adding reliability won't change anything. The situation you described will still happen (once per session per player, in our group), and it will still be unfun, and your tactics and desire will mean nothing in the face of that 1. Even with reliability, you'll just get to try your encounter power next round; that won't diminish at all how much your character sucked it up in that moment.

 

[Joshua Randall]

To cut to the chase, my question is this: does it unbalance the game to make all powers that have no effect on a miss Reliable?

Yes.

As other have said, this would make Encounter powers too good.

On a related note, note that all Daily powers are either (1) Reliable, (2) do half damage on a miss, or (3) have an Effect line that applies regardless of hit or miss.

A very common mistake I see with new 4e players is:

"I attack with my Daily. Oh crap, I missed. *sigh*"

It shouild be:

"I attack with my Daily. Oh crap, I missed. Well, at least I (get to try again next round) / (do half damage) / (apply this Effect anyway)."

 

[Storminator]

I play a PC that sounds very similar to yours. I'm a STR cleric, looking to deal out as much greataxe damage as possible. It's not as effective as it could be. I'm usually between 3rd and last in damage dealt. I have a couple 2[W] powers. The one I took at 7th level didn't connect until I was 8th level. An entire level of suckage with that power.

I've had sessions where all I do is heal and provide flanking for the rogue. I had a session where, due to terrain, concentrated monster attacks and poor rolls, I did nothing the entire encounter.

But if you let it slide, continue to plug away anyway, and wait for the dice to come around it's fine. I don't need my PC to be the hero every session.

If you have that attitude, you don't need reliable encounter powers. Also, as you go up in level you get more encounter powers, and flubbing each one means less.

PS

 

[Nahat Anoj]

So attack and miss with the At-Will, then AP and attack with the Encounter power...

and roll a 1.

I feel your pain. This past Sunday, I rolled a 1 using an at-will power, then spent an AP to do it again (I'm also human, and have Action Surge) but rolled another 1. It sucked.

But that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes you roll a 1 and it's awful. Other times you roll a 20 and it's awesome. There are various ways to soften the blow (make all powers reliable, Dark Sun style rerolls, all powers do half damage on a miss, etc.), but at some point I believe it's just something that needs to be accepted.

I agree with others that say that rolling a 1 will always suck. There will always be a moment when, rolling a 1, you slap your head and feel stupid (although, of course, you are in no way responsible for the result of a random die roll ).

In any event, the situation could have been turned into an role-playing opportunity. When the chips were down and you really needed a strong attack, why did it fail? Did your god desert you? Is your character concerned he might have some kind of curse? I think this is a better way to go then trying to change the system so you don't feel so bad about rolling a one.

Lastly, a final option is to play the Price is Right failure sound or the "sad trombone" sound whenever someone rolls a 1. Celebrate failure.

 

[P1NBACK]

Use the new Dark Sun rule or a variant of it:

Reckless Breakage: When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, your weapon has a chance to break. You can accept the result, automatically missing the attack as usual, but keeping your weapon intact. Alternatively, you can reroll. Regardless of the reroll result, a nonmetal weapon breaks once the attack is complete. A metal weapon breaks only if you roll a natural 5 or lower on the reroll. This rule gives you a say in whether a weapon breaks. You can play it safe and except the errant attack, or you can attempt to avoid a miss by risking your weapon.

 

[Herschel]

I hate missing. Outside of my prescient bard, every other character I play has a +3 proficiency weapon. (and the bard has a bow due to reload at this point). I will take expertise. I will set up combat advantage, wait for bonuses, you name it. I picture the hit in my head as I imagine what the character actually does as I describe it.

And yet, I still roll crap some times. It sucks, but it's part of the game.

 

[fba827]

it's a game with dice, it's going to be variable. success vs failure combined with resource management is really a large part of it. (do you take the gamble with your big power that is expendable but offers bigger reward for the risk taken; or do you stick with a nonexpendable atwill that offers modest returns for little risk)


Your build choices can affect your success rate (feats, class, powers, race, etc various ones have a variety of ways to boost your attack roll or reroll, etc).

Some factors to consider though:
1) you'll devalue some other players' PCs -- they invested in thier "to hit" rate (via bonuses or reroll abilities) or chose powers that were already reliable for that very reason. Heck, if you stick with just PHB1, reliable is a strong feature (almost exclusive) to the fighter class

2) making something reliable won't change the fact that you miss. It means that instead of wasting a resource (ie daily power/ encounter power) and a turn you'll instead be wasting a turn
-- there is one fighter that has a reliable power, but luck dictates that he misses several times with it. So then he obssess about trying it again and again every round or two until it hits, thus, he'll invest around 2-4 rounds of trying the one reliable power before it actually hits.

3) powers that are already reliable are reliable in place of some other bonus (i.e. a reliable encounter power, for instance, doesn't (usually) have a miss or effect like other non-reliable powers do, the reliable is in place of that. So by adding it to all, you give an extra boost to them)

Having said all that, if your group is not satisfied and wants the change, by all means, tweak as necessary for your group experience.

but is it a change i'd make or want to implemented in my group? not really unless it was a "level 1, one-time" type game that wouldn't be played beyond one session.

you could achieve the same type of thing with something other than 'reliable' for instance, check out the house rules forum here. Some people have a very small group pool of tokens (similar to action points, but it's shared with the group) that let someone reroll. Something like that is a little more modular and selfcontained rather than a sweeping change of giving reliable to every encounter power.

 

[Pickles JG]

Satcking everything you have on one single encounter power promises great reward... at the chance of just missing... simple as that. It is not unlike older editions, where you used your spell on a monster with 20% spell resistance... and fail.
It used to happen a lot back in the old days, and it happens now. Failure is a part of the system. Maybe having some reserves for the slight chance, that your attack just misses is not the worst idea...

This - spreading out the fun attacks & not powerattacking your RRoT attack makes some sense. I have used encounnter elven accuracy reroll ap attack minor attack with a Ranger & got all misses before...It is one of the reasons that I do not like playing strikers much - if I am not hitting & damaging I feel that I am not contributing much. A cleric can still heal & has little riders on his at wills. A fighter still marks & can position for flanks gets the odd out of turn attack & gets to be hit.

The striker I enjoy the most is my Rogue who is very accurate & has a lot of status effects (though he still has to hit to use them) & my sorcerer who has lots (er all) AOEs & so makes many attack rolls which smears the luck.

 

[Solvarn]

Risk vs. Reward

To cut to the chase, my question is this: does it unbalance the game to make all powers that have no effect on a miss Reliable?

And if thats true, why not make powers that do nothing on a miss Reliable? Or give 'em a recharge on 5-6 on a d6, or something--anything to avoid that feeling of "I just burned through my best resources and gained nothing!"

I'm on this big risk vs. reward kick today, I talked about rewards in the magic item thread. I'll talk about the single biggest problem with 4E in my opinion, and it directly relates to your question.

Critical failures can be just as defining as critical successes. They can be character defining, depending on the story. I still remember the time, in the chapel of Castle Ravenloft, I fumbled *two* saving throws in a row. Dead character, totally by accident, totally not by design. Damned inconvenient. But classic. Was I happy at the time? No. I was able to laugh it off though. And it changed the story quite a bit.

I think that our society today focuses too much on "everyone being a winner". This isn't how life works. This mentality leads to people not working as well as they could as a team in D&D. Everyone wants to be the one to do something totally awesome on their turn. The thing about victory is sometimes there is a loser, and that sucks. It sucked when you fumbled. I hear you. I've been there too.

I hear these stories about kids playing baseball and not keeping score and it makes me sad. Without competition and the possibility of loss, how is victory exciting? Why practice harder?

What some people don't realize though is that adversity builds character. I know that in my personal life, things have always come easily to me. It was like my life was blessed, and the world revolved around me. I'm finding in my late twenties, with three kids and a wife, that the world does not in fact revolve around me. Sometimes things don't work out the way I think they should. I am learning some of these life lessons the hard way. Now in a game setting, some people think that everything should work out their way, all the time. How fun is that?

Anyway, all of this is up to the game you are playing and if everyone buys in on this. Some people are completely happy with showing up at a game, getting their pellet, drinking from their water dish, and leaving. This is really why Living Forgotten Realms has gotten dreadfully boring to me, and why, in my opinion, it will never see the popularity or dedication that Living Greyhawk did. The risk is lower, and the rewards are bland. A lot of 4E games are like this too, because risk has been diluted, reward has been homogenized, and defeat is impossible because the DM is handing out encounters that the PC's always win. I do think that the powers that be in D&D have noticed this and are rectifying the situation.

I will suggest to you sir to drink down your bitter defeat. Let the acrid taste sit on your tongue a bit. Overcoming adversity is heroic because it isn't easy to do. When you fail, you pick yourself back up, and try again. And if you can succeed, well... that is the stuff legends are made of.

 

[jbear]

I know missing has always been part of the game, and 1's suck in any edition. But I think the 4e power system has made missing way more significant in any encounter.

I know that feeling, my entire group have been having a run of 'Hey cool, I rolled a 12 at last... only just a hit, but still a hit! Because the last four rounds i rolled a 3, a 5, a 2, then AP for a 6... that 8 the next round was close...so, yeah! Loving a 12!' That has been for about 3 game sessions in a row. But we're still alive amazingly.

Yes those moments suck. But they make it feel pretty sweet when the day comes when it all just goes right!

1's... I love to hate them! Sometimes you accidently stick your foot in a bucket of kobold feces or slip on the banana skin that the Warlock's Imp left lying around, that's D&D.