4e Ravenloft - Dragon 368

Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.
You crazy rebel, you. :D

It's Dracula....not Hellboy..

If someone happens to like that, fine. I just wish they would give it a new name, rather taking a much-loved setting, and turning it into something very, very different.
The old name will sell better, so to speak. If they tried something new that was moderately close to the old Ravenloft, the nerdrage would build up so high that meteors would be summoned down from the heavens and rain hot fire down upon the WotC offices until there was nothing left but a giant smoking crater.

Given that Ravenloft is only appearing in Dragon for now, however, they might be willing to do so. Sales aren't going to be an issue for them, so hopefully they'll abandon some of the extreme caution they've demonstrated with 4e publishing so far and go all-in with Ravenloft as a setting of gothic horror. We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.
Yeah, that would be wonderful.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ravenloft co-opted Soth, and when Weis/Hickman made another DL novel, they ignored Ravenloft entirely, keeping Soth always/forever in DL.

TSR then came up with a RL excuse for it, to cover the settings.

This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.

* Margaret and Tracy were not on great terms with TSR when the decision was made to move Soth to Ravenloft. They were offered the chance to write the novel, review the manuscript, etc. (I was the Ravenloft fiction line editor at the time and made the call to Margaret.) They refused. Not a surprise. They were not even writing Dragonlance books for the company at the time.

* It was not my decision to move Soth from Krynn to Ravenloft; the decision had been made before I was assigned the Ravenloft book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance.

* I reluctantly ended up writing that first Soth Ravenloft novel because, in large part, the other potential writers were proposing substantial changes to Soth's character. My premise for Soth's stay in Ravenloft--as shown in the two novels I wrote--was that he would begin his imprisonment tormented by imperfect versions of his story. He would eventually be all but paralyzed by these false tales. Then, when he reclaimed his true story--basically, got back to where he was when he entered the Mists--he would leave the Dark Domains and return to Krynn. Since it's never revealed how the Dark Powers work, it's unclear if he escaped, was taught a lesson, or simply found a pre-existing doorway out. On a storytelling level, I built the mechanism for that escape into the first novel, since I was assuming Soth would eventually be sprung. So that departure was not an excuse TSR or WotC cobbled together; it was the plan from the start, at least as far as I and several others were concerned. If WotC had not brought me back to write Spectre, it could have played out very differently. This was, however, a case where the original plan played out largely as envisioned.

* Time moves differently on Krynn and in Ravenloft, so Soth could have spent 100 years in the Dark Domains and been gone from Krynn 10 seconds or 10 minutes or 10 years. There is no reason, in terms of continuity, that the Ravenloft books can't fit with the published Dragonlance material. At the same time, the DL material need not actively support the Ravenloft "interlude" for Soth, since it occurred in such a way that his absence need not be explained away. To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.

* It is neither my call, nor Margaret and Tracy's, on whether Soth ever went to Ravenloft. The last official word I had from WotC was that the two Sithicus novels were considered official. If WotC staffers change their mind on that, we could have a different ruling. Hasbro owns the character and all the books. Last I heard, the Ravenloft novels were official. WotC and Hasbro recently approved the publication of a comic book adaptation of the Soth-in-Ravenloft story "The Rigor of the Game" in Worlds of Dungeons & Dragons issue #3, so it seems they're still canon. Tomorrow, someone from WotC could post here and say that's changed and they're no longer official continuity. Two years from now, someone else could take over in Renton and rule them canon again.

That's the nature of shared world work.

Cheers,
James Lowder
www.jameslowder.com
 
Last edited:

To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.

Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked. :)

Cheers,
Cam
 

James, thank you very much for your insight on the Soth issue. That sort of insider view really does clear up a lot of the speculation and perpetual internet rumor mill on the topic, and it's really cool to here about what went into the creative process regarding Soth from your end with your novels, trying to balance it with considerations from two settings' perspectives.

Awesome.
shemmysmile.gif
 

Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked. :)

Thanks, Cam. I worked hard to make certain Soth stayed consistent with the character as portrayed by Margaret and Tracy. And they got him back as they had left him.

I certainly understand why any writers might be annoyed or disappointed that TSR/WotC/Hasbro decided to use characters or setting elements they created in a way they had not intended. That loss of control is a big downside to shared world contracts.

Cheers,
Jim
 

This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.
To be clear, I'm not criticizing Soth In Ravenloft, or the work done on him there. I had left the game before his novels came out, but overall liked all the RL stuff from when I read it.

* It was not my decision to move Soth to Krynn; the decision had been made before I was assigned the book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance.
Do you mean "to move Soth to Ravenloft"?
That's the nature of shared world work.

Cheers,
James Lowder
www.jameslowder.com

Definitely, and thanks for the post. What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.
 

What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.

Let's be clear here: Margaret and Tracy were allowed to write Soth back into Krynn. If Wizards did not want it to happen and the authors would not cooperate by changing the text, the editors in the book department would have simply changed it for them. The owner of the intellectual property has final say here, not the writers. That's part of the standard WotC work-for-hire contract.

A smart publisher/IP owner works with the creators rather than dictating to them, allows for creative latitude rather than micromanaging content, but the contract sets up a specific balance of power that does not favor the writers.

As I understand it, Margaret and Tracy said they wanted to use the character of Soth again in their books. I was not part of that discussion, so I don't know how that conversation played out. What I can relate from firsthand experience is what happened next: Wizards mulled over the decision and brought in other people to discuss the matter, from both the Dragonlance and Ravenloft teams, both games and fiction. The move was only approved for the Dragonlance books after both teams were satisfied. Margaret and Tracy got what they wanted, but only because Wizards allowed that to happen.

I was not working for Wizards at the time; they asked me if I wanted to write the Ravenloft novel that explained Soth's move back to Krynn. I was enthusiastic about the idea, since I had built the escape route into the first book and was hoping Soth would make it back to Krynn when Margaret and Tracy wanted to use him. But I had some conditions about participating--I wanted the plot, overall, to play out a certain way. Wizards liked what I wanted to do, so that was allowed to go forward in Spectre of the Black Rose.

Authors writing novels for TSR and Wizards have had more or less power in determining the direction and content of their books, depending upon the company philosophy at the time, as well as the work style of the people running the book department, the different lines, even editing the individual books. (Right now, with the Realms and Ravenloft and the other settings, we're seeing a top-down approach in action, where the company role in determining content is open and obvious; that may have a different direct impact from project to project, but the overall metaplot is being driven by people inside WotC.) And some authors have more clout than others.

But at the end of the day, unless their contracts specifically deviate from the standard work-for-hire agreement, authors do not make decisions without someone inhouse authorizing them to do so.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
 

Hey, James!

I know the "Soth" topic comes up with fair regularity, so it's kind of you to set the record straight (again.) And it's always interesting to get a "Behind-the-scenes" peek into the creative process, and how it interacts with the mundane business-needs of a company.

And, as you state, it's easy to reconcile both the "RL" SOth and the "DL" Soth; the two need not be mutually exclusive for gamers. (Indeed, "When Black Roses Bloom" is in my top 10 list of RL modules, and your two Soth novels were highlights of the fiction line.)

TO keep this on topic; I'll certainly read the Dragon magaine with the RL material before making a final judgement, but, based on all I've seen, heard and read over the last year or so from WotC, I unfortunately don't hold much confidence. (I'm particuarly curious if they intend to use the whole RL setting, or if they're just going to transplant Soth and/or Barovia into the default "PoL" setting, or some sort of hybrid of the two.)
 
Last edited:

The average barovian villager would be making covert hex signs at the entire party and he will call on the lynchmob if he feels he can get away with it.

In his eyes, the Human Paladin, dressed in ornate plate armor with strange runes and signs and carrying a jeweled longsword is just as alien as the Tiefling or the Eladrin in the group.

Also, it doesnt matter that the Cleric claims his magic comes from his deity. If he can do greater miracles than the local parish priest, then its the lynchmob for him.


But I see 4E and RL as being antihetical to each other, at least in mood, tone and theme. While 4E professes a "PoL" world, it seems (IMO) to take it's cue from Anime/Warcraft and more modern influences.

...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.

The question is, IMHO, "can you do 4e Ravenloft" and the answer, for me at least, is yes.

Some DMs might want to restrict Ravenloft PCs to be "human-only" or some may not. Its up to you, and you don't have to inyect dragonborn into your village of inbred hicks just because WotC says so.

I would like to have a 4e Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, however. YMMV
 


Remove ads

Top