D&D 4E 4e: the new paradigm

[hong]

I would say that Storytellers probably dont love 4E as we haven't seen any mechanics that really facilitate story or tie characters to a narrative.

The change of power usage really is not helpful or detrimental. I am not familiar enough with the new conflict resolution to make an opinion.

"Storyteller" in the context of Robin Laws is basically a gamer who prefers campaigns where events form a continuous plotline. Like, say, a Paizo/Dungeon adventure path series, culminating in a single foozle to kill. This can be distinguished from a campaign which is basically a set of standalone adventures, or one where the players set the agenda (and which is therefore likely to shift around a lot, depending on who's driving at the moment).

Most CRPGs have a storyline. Even a sandbox-style franchise like The Elder Scrolls has a stronger plot in its most recent incarnation, Oblivion, than it did in Morrowind.

Ooh, another reason why storytellers might like 4E: the toning down of instakills and general lethality. No more having to worry that someone important to the plot will die due to a stray critical hit or disintegrate.

 

[hong]

That's not really accidental suck, though, that's more Intentional Suck: It's kind of fun for you to suck at something if you made a concious descision to suck at it.

An acceptable tradeoff for not having accidental suck.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah I would consider myself a Storyteller DM and the way 4e is handling narrative and the game in-general, well I just adore.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

This is like saying "that you can't start your car whenever you like. You can start your car, but you can't expect the benefit of turning the key in the ignition whenever you'd like'.

I mean, what is the 'trip power'? The ability to knock someone off their feet, right? In the chaos of melee, the first person you trip instantly transmits the information to every other opponent so you are unable to knock their feet out from under them again?

No. The trip power/feat is different from simply knocking someone down, which can seemingly always be done. It's just that a more effective trip, like that associated with the trip excesses of 3.5, can only be done 1/encounter.

Something like the Bodak's ability to drop an opponent to 0hp is a gross disparity of power. We are talking about 'trip' here. I defy anyone to show how that is a gross disparity of power.

Do players have bodak characters?

But is that a problem with the rules, or the particular group of players? Is there really something inherent to the rules for Climb that will render everyone else at the table ineffective in every situation? Is Power Attack so overwhelmingly potent that everyone else can leave their weapons at home?

The problem is not skills and it is not fighters. The problem is clerics, druids, and wizards; they can single-handedly destroy a large party of fighters.

That is the job of the DM.

It sounds glib, but that really is the bottom line. While that requires a certain portion of fiat, 4e hasn't lessened that, only changed its focus. So instead of allowing or disallowing certain actions (there simply are times when a History check is inappropriate, no matter how cleverly worded), the DM is now having to alter the world on the fly, and explain why the players can't use some ability more than once per day. A trade off, to be sure, but more like a straight across trade than a trade-up.

If you like a game where the DM controls things, then fine. However, no DM or player is required to change anything in the world because of skill checks and player innovation (though I hope that any DM would). Nor does the DM have to explain why players can't use a power more than once per day.

 

[apoptosis]

"Storyteller" in the context of Robin Laws is basically a gamer who prefers campaigns where events form a continuous plotline. Like, say, a Paizo/Dungeon adventure path series, culminating in a single foozle to kill. This can be distinguished from a campaign which is basically a set of standalone adventures, or one where the players set the agenda (and which is therefore likely to shift around a lot, depending on who's driving at the moment).

Most CRPGs have a storyline. Even a sandbox-style franchise like The Elder Scrolls has a stronger plot in its most recent incarnation, Oblivion, than it did in Morrowind.

Ooh, another reason why storytellers might like 4E: the toning down of instakills and general lethality. No more having to worry that someone important to the plot will die due to a stray critical hit or disintegrate.

Fair enough given how you think of "Storyteller"

You make a good point about instakills.

 

[Pbartender]

No. The trip power/feat is different from simply knocking someone down, which can seemingly always be done. It's just that a more effective trip, like that associated with the trip excesses of 3.5, can only be done 1/encounter.

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between the two? That is to say, do we actually know that there's a difference between the once per encounter trip "power", and a standard knocking someone down with STR (or DEX) vs. Reflex? If the enemy ends up prone either way, what's the advantage to the first as opposed to the latter?

In a wider sense, if 4E allows for the latter (players can do practically anything with a simple ROLL vs. Defense), but the powers allow for more effective versions of the same... that's good thing. It allows anybody to try anything, but let's those are are suppose to be good at it, occassionally be VERY good at it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between the two? That is to say, do we actually know that there's a difference between the once per encounter trip "power", and a standard knocking someone down with STR (or DEX) vs. Reflex? If the enemy ends up prone either way, what's the advantage to the first as opposed to the latter?

In a wider sense, if 4E allows for the latter (players can do practically anything with a simple ROLL vs. Defense), but the powers allow for more effective versions of the same... that's good thing. It allows anybody to try anything, but let's those are are suppose to be good at it, occassionally be VERY good at it.

Jugding from most martial (attack) powers, they work like this:
They deal damage and have a rider effect. So a trip power or a grapple power would allow you to deal damage _and_ perform the combat maneuver. Basically, instead of Improved Trip, you get "Trip" (Wolf special attack), and instead of Improved Grapple, you get Improved Grab.

 

[hong]

Jugding from most martial (attack) powers, they work like this:
They deal damage and have a rider effect. So a trip power or a grapple power would allow you to deal damage _and_ perform the combat maneuver. Basically, instead of Improved Trip, you get "Trip" (Wolf special attack), and instead of Improved Grapple, you get Improved Grab.

Actually, as part of the new emphasis on movement, they seem to be deliberately cutting down on things that stop people moving around. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if tripping (as in, mechanically knocking people prone) really was a special, per-encounter thing only available only to certain characters.

You could always narrate events during combat as knocking people to the ground, of course, but that would only be flavour. Eg a normal hit could be described as "your warhammer smashes the orc back and he stumbles to the ground; he hastily scrambles back to his feet as you draw back for another blow".

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Actually, as part of the new emphasis on movement, they seem to be deliberately cutting down on things that stop people moving around. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if tripping (as in, mechanically knocking people prone) really was a special, per-encounter thing only available only to certain characters.

You could always narrate events during combat as knocking people to the ground, of course, but that would only be flavour. Eg a normal hit could be described as "your warhammer smashes the orc back and he stumbles to the ground; he hastily scrambles back to his feet as you draw back for another blow".

Hmm. Since Grapple is a "standard mechanic" that immobilizes, I don't think that is entirely true.
Both both Grapple and Trip will be easy to recover from. (Escaping a Grapple requires a move action vs. a standard action in 3E, for example). I wouldn't be surprised if standing up from prone is only a minor action, or doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity Opportunity Attack. (For all I care, I'd be fine accepting that "Prone" just means "you grant combat advantage until you spend an action to negate".)

 

[hong]

Well, grapple that immobilises is still way nerfed compared to 3E grapple, which immobilises, removes Dex bonus to AC AND shuts down your attacks.