D&D 4E 4E - What Rules Need Staying?

[Li Shenron]

What rules of 3e do you really like a lot and wish they were ported to 4e (adjustments notwithstanding)?

It doesn't matter whether you think it's unlikely/impossible they will be maintained... just what you wish!

For me it's at least:

Feats:
- in the sense of a system of "special abilities" that a can be taken every X level to customize your character
- I like the idea that feats are approximately equally useful
- I also like the prerequisite ideas for feats, that create "feat chains"

Skills:
- for me it's been the best system for "anything else than fighting and casting spells"
- very simple mechanic, fast to use
- high degree of customization
- I also like how class skills list help separating the roles of the different classes, without completely barring uncommon characters

I think these 2 ideas were among the best things introduced by 3e.

 

[Darklone]

Multiclassing. Scratch most prestige classes and replace them with multiclass feats like the Ascetic things or the Daring Outlaw.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think these 2 ideas were among the best things introduced by 3e.

I think feats were a reaction to capabilities introduced into computer RPG games in the late 90s and have been drastically overcompensating.

Spell casters used to be able to just craft items once they reached the appropriate levels. Now, they cannot without the appropriate feats.

Many of the abilities that are in feats should be made class abilities, not feats. Now that Pandora's box is opened, it will never close again.

 

[Li Shenron]

Many of the abilities that are in feats should be made class abilities, not feats. Now that Pandora's box is opened, it will never close again.

That's quite an unusual view, I often hear the opposite, that class abilities should be made into feats in order for them to be available to everyone.

But anyway I only meant to say that I really like the feat system as a whole. Not necessarily all the feats which have been printed (and in fact I dislike a lot of those in 3.5 books).

 

[Greg K]

Domains: I like differentiating between clerics of different deities (I also don't think the rules don't go far enough).

Feats: I like feats. However, I would like to see many of the combat feats that are really combat maneuvers (e.g, power attack, the ability to throw sand in the face (forgot the feat name name)) become maneuvers that anyone can attempt (I would also prefer to see them handled as maneuvers in Book of Iron Might rather than ToB maneuvers). Save Feats for things like Rage, Improved Toughness, Skill Focus, etc.

Skills
- non condensed skills
-skill Points (as a player)

Monster Ability Scores: I like having these. I requested their inclusion in my pre-3e questionaire. To, me it makes ajudicating things much easier, IMO

 

[KarinsDad]

That's quite an unusual view, I often hear the opposite, that class abilities should be made into feats in order for them to be available to everyone.

But anyway I only meant to say that I really like the feat system as a whole. Not necessarily all the feats which have been printed (and in fact I dislike a lot of those in 3.5 books).

One possible solution is to make class abilities both class abilities and feats (but within feat chains). That way, class abilities are easy to attain if a PC stays within the class, but more difficult to attain for PCs outside of the class (due to having to go through a feat chain as opposed to just picking a feat).

I got shudders the first time I opened the 3E PHB. I dislike the very concept of a feat system. It turns DND into GURPS where anyone can buy anything they want with the only limitation being on how much they can buy (more or less). It waters down classes a lot in the name of versatility.

Plus, it creates difficulties for DMs creating NPCs, there is a vast array of source books with hundreds of feats in them that PCs either will not take or cannot take, etc. It's just a big mess and could be cleaned up considerably. For example, they have feats of "+2 to skill x and +2 to skill y". Those 30 or so feats could be replaced with a single feat. Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude could be replaced with a single feat (and do not create Forgotten Realms regional feats which are the equivalent of these three with just a tiny little other ability added to them). Any silly idea that comes to a designer's mind ("Hey, we have Iron Will at +2 to Will Saves, let's create a feat that gives +1 to all three saves") suddenly ends up in print.

It's a control and organizational nightmare. There are so many feats that people cannot even find ones they want. Every once in a while, someone posts a message here on the boards asking if someone remembers the name of the feat or knows of a feat that allows xyz. It's very difficult for people to even get their hands around without having to ask a large group of experts here on the boards. It could be controlled a lot better by WotC.

 

[Greyhawk]

I think that feats and skills allow much broader character development than in earlier editions of the game, and mean that the game has a more open and natural feel to it. Unfortunately for feats, spells and some abilities (not to mention classes) there have been far too many new ones introduced in the various supplements. Don't get me wrong, there are some good and useful ideas out there but there have been some that nobody in their right mind would select and others that allow the generation of Uber characters by the min/max rules lawyers.

4th Edition is the opportunity for a 'spring clean' and also to make the starting game much more welcoming to new recruits. At the moment it must be very daunting and a barrier for newcomers when they initially start playing.

Domains I love and would like to see extended, they give each cleric more depth and identity.

Above all make it an evolution in the game system not a revolution, characters (and players) should be able to migrate to the new rules without major trauma!

GH

 

[Jhaelen]

Feats:
- in the sense of a system of "special abilities" that a can be taken every X level to customize your character
- I like the idea that feats are approximately equally useful
- I also like the prerequisite ideas for feats, that create "feat chains"

Wow, the current feat system is actually almost on the top of my wishlist for changes!

Do you really, really think that the existing feats are roughly equivalent in power? IMHO, it couldn't be farther from the truth.

I also hate the completely irregular prerequisites that feats have.

What I'd like to see is a feat system, that either require a minimum (character) level to take or a minimum number of other feats belonging to the same 'group'. Something similar to the feat groups in 'Iron Heroes' or the maneuvers from the 'Tome of Battle'.

I'd also like it a lot if every single class ability was available as a feat. In combination with assigning a level to every feat as outlined above, you'd require a much smaller number of base classes to cover all archetypes and you wouldn't need prestige classes at all.

 

[mvincent]

1) Stat point-buy option
2) No combat facing
3) Creature sizing rules
4) Jumping rules
5) on-line SRD
6) miniatures
7) internet resources

 

[Li Shenron]

I got shudders the first time I opened the 3E PHB. I dislike the very concept of a feat system. It turns DND into GURPS where anyone can buy anything they want with the only limitation being on how much they can buy (more or less). It waters down classes a lot in the name of versatility.

I don't think it's true... Prerequisites are there exactly so that if the designer wants to make a feat restricted, it can be done easily. Generic feats are a great to customize characters and make 2 fighters (or 2 clerics, or 2 druids etc.) different from each other. But feats can also be made class-specific (expanding/enhancing a class feature), and it does not water down classes a lot... At least up to those printed in the 3.0 classbooks, feats were really great, then indeed some books went to far making odd-looking feats with half-a-page mechanics.

But anyway a feat-like system is essential to customize characters... You could have a different customization system that is defined separately for each class. For example, wizards/sorcerers already are differentiated enough by choosing spells. UA and PHB2 class variants go this way. But there will always be some generic things that makes all sense to make available to everyone (various combat feats, special resistances...).

Plus, it creates difficulties for DMs creating NPCs, there is a vast array of source books with hundreds of feats in them that PCs either will not take or cannot take, etc. It's just a big mess and could be cleaned up considerably.

That's not a problem. We just game with a few books and there's no mess at all. I am a DM and I do not bother browsing hundreds of feats for NPCs... I can if I want, but if I don't want I can just choose common feats, like those that buff basic things (Toughness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus, Great Fort etc.).