D&D 4E 4E With Three Classes: Martial, Arcane, Divine?

[Wisdom Penalty]

Anyone trying taking a "gestalt" approach and merging the classes down into the various power sources?

One of the issues I have with 4E is the limited choices, per level-up, of powers. And I also dislike that our two 5th level fighters are nearly identical (i.e., there's always an 'optimal' choice at each level).

What if we greatly increased the number of available powers by merging classes? A fighter could then, for example, select from the Fighter powers, Ranger powers, etc. A Cleric would have access to both the Cleric stuff and Paladin stuff. Yada yada.

Since the number and level of your powers doesn't change, I would think there would not be a huge impact on balance.

Any ideas? Anyone try that?

WP

 

[Rafe]

I haven't tried it - nor do I know anyone who has - but I think it would be interesting. I think you could have a lot of fun with that. You'd just have to adjust encounter budgets to assume 2 extra people in the party to compensate for the diversity/flexibility of powers a single character can employ.

 

[fba827]

I think that could work. Just a few things to consider.

You wil need to figure out how to handle class features (for instance, will a divine character get the healing word class feature)

You will also need to figure out how to handle specializations within a build (tactical warlord, archer ranger, infernal pact warlock, etc). Because some of their class' powers have special bonuses for having the specailziation. Or else those powers become much less appealing if no one can have those specailizations, or if they do have those specializations then they'll probably few non-specialized powers.


You may find people will tend to pick in the same general class most of the time simply because the powers will be keyed off the same set of attributes.

 

[Rafe]

I agree with fba827.

My advice: I think you would be better off going with the roles (Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller) as classes instead of using power sources. Also, put Warlock into Controller for the sake of parity and fairness for options. That removes Martial, the main power source, as being what most would take (because there are 4 Martial classes) and allows you to include the Barbarian, if you wanted, because the Barbarian's source is Primal, which wouldn't fit into your scheme.

 

[Jhaelen]

I've never been into Gestalt but if I were to combine any of the 4E classes I'd combine them according to role not power source (like Rafe suggested).

I also suspect that soon enough there'll be more than enough powers to choose from when the power-specific supplements hit the streets.

 

[knightofround]

I dunno I think the OP is really on to something here. The problem with doing gesalt by class role is that it doesn't let you do much branching out. A ranger/warlock combo won't play too differently than a ranger or a warlock. And one of the great things about running a gesalt campaign is that you don't get pigeonholed into class roles.

Doing it by power source seems to make more RP-ing sense to me. A wizard could gesalt into Swordmage, because the swordmage powers really aren't that different from the spells he normally casts. (This makes much more sense to me than gesalting into a warrior or cleric)

A fighter could gesalt into warlord because they're both skilled in melee combat--its just the warlord is more inspiring to allies and the fighter is more intimidating to enemies. (This makes more sense to me than the fighter somehow slinging swordmage spells or calling down paladin smites)

A nice side-effect of this is that by arranging by power source, it eliminates the need for gesalt characters to have crazy stats in everything. Almost all Arcane classes, irregardless of role, utilize INT. Almost all Martial clases, irregardless of role, utilize STR. Almost all Divine classes, irregardless of role, utilize WIS. And those three stats just so happen to be tied to Ref/Fort/Will. And within each power source there's someone that dabbles in Dex, Con, and Cha.

I think the biggest issue is the class imbalance between the power sources. 4 martial, 2 arcane, 2 divine in the core...and if we include swordmage+bard+barbarian+artificer, it goes to 5/5/2. (Breaking up the primal into the core 3 sources until we actually get some primal classes) In order for this framework to really shine there needs to be more divine classes, because it would kinda suck to go divine and be pigeonholed into Paladin/Cleric (which is a good combo, but still not alot of variety there)

Class features would be somewhat of a headache to handle. I think an easy way out would be to simply grant only one of the classes' features, however allow the player to select a "build" option from their secondary class. So if someone made a Wizard/Warlock, they wouldn't be able to use the warlock curse ability, but they could choose Infernal Pact so the related powers will be enhanced. These "builds" would only apply to powers--so if a Fighter/Rogue selected artful dodger for their build, they wouldn't get the AC bonus versus OAs...only the powers that refer to artful dodge will be enhanced.

 

[Nail]

I dunno I think the OP is really on to something here. The problem with doing gesalt by class role is that it doesn't let you do much branching out.

I disagree. A fighter (with extra hp and HS and Combat Challenge) with all of the damage potential of a ranger (which comes from its powers)? Sign me up! That PC build would easily be more powerful that a straight fighter - and wildly out-of-balance.

Gestalt rules don't work well with 4e, IMO, because of the focus on roles. A ranger does lots of damage...but he's not as tough or as sticky as a fighter. Take that away, and power balloons out-of-control.

This seems like house rules material, rather than Rules Forum stuff, too.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

This seems like house rules material, rather than Rules Forum stuff, too.

Sorry about that. I agree.

WP

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One of the issues I have with 4E is the limited choices, per level-up, of powers. And I also dislike that our two 5th level fighters are nearly identical (i.e., there's always an 'optimal' choice at each level).

I hugely disagree with that, and if that's what your guys think then they're not being very creative. For one, there's the basic choice of Sword and Board versus Two-handed Weapon. Tide of Iron only works for Sword and Board, and Reaping Strike will work with either, but synergizes better with Two-handed Weapon style. So right there with your At-Wills there's already a big difference depending on build.

Then throw in your eventual goals for Paragon Path. Personally, I really like the Iron Vanguard PP, and it synergizes with some other things. I'm a Dragonborn, so I have a power that keys off Con, and get extra healing from my surges based on Con. I also like Axes and their powers, which key off Con. So going Iron Vanguard means that I'll be dealing a lot of damage with Trample the Fallen, especially with some of the powers that allow you to push multiple opponents.

Of course, you could go a different route and go high Wis, then go into Pit Fighter. Combine that with Polearms or Heavy Blades and you become an Opportunity Attack monster.

While I understand that these don't kick in until level 10, you start planning for them at level 1. They should affect what weapons you use, what feats you pick and how you spread your stats. So unless both of your Fighters want to be hammer wielding Iron Vanguards, they should be differentiating their builds a lot more. So the fault there would not be the system, but rather in the creativity of your Fighters.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I agree with Doctor Proctor. If 4e is too bland, it is likely a result of not allowing yourself the creative freedom it encourages in the rules.

Try this for an example from a different class that uses the same build for two very different characters. With a different build you could come up with even greater variation.

Nature Themed Standard Wizard
Powers
[SBLOCK=Thunderwave]
Thunderwave Wizard Attack 1
You create a whip-crack of sonic power that lashes up from the ground.
_______________________
At-Will ~ Arcane, Thunder, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier. Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Ray of Frost]
Ray of Frost Wizard Attack 1
A blisteringly cold ray of white frost streaks to your target.
_______________________
At-Will ~ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Ray of Enfeeblement]
Ray of Enfeemlement Wizard Attack 1
You point three fingers at your foe, curling them like talons. Weird green mist streams from your enemy’s flesh, carrying away its strength.
_______________________
Encounter ~ Arcane, Necrotic, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage, and the target is weakened until the end of your next turn.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Sleep]
Sleep Wizard Attack 1
You exert your will against your foes, seeking to overwhelm them with a tide of magical weariness.
_______________________
Daily ~ Arcane, Sleep, Implement
Standard Action Ranged burst 2
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
_______________________
Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).
Miss: The target is slowed (save ends).[/SBLOCK]

Time Themed Reflavored Wizard
Powers
[SBLOCK=Telekinetic Burst]
Telekinetic Burst Wizard Attack 1
You unleash the force of your mind to send enemies sprawling.
_______________________
At-Will ~ Arcane, Thunder, Implement
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier. Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Chill of Timelessness]
Chill of Timelessness Wizard Attack 1
Time slows for the target as he is exposed to the fridgid darkness at the end of time.
_______________________
At-Will ~ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier cold damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Feel the Effects of Time]
Feel the Effects of Time Wizard Attack 1
The target shifts in the timestream to a point far in their future, their body a mere husk of it's former self.
_______________________
Encounter ~ Arcane, Necrotic, Implement
Standard Range 10 Ranged
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
_______________________
Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage, and the target is weakened until the end of your next turn.[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK=Temporal Rift]
Temporal Rift Wizard Attack 1
A temporary rift in the fabric of reality causes each target to be temporarily separated from the River of Time.
_______________________
Daily ~ Arcane, Sleep, Implement
Standard Action Ranged burst 2
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
_______________________
Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).
Miss: The target is slowed (save ends).[/SBLOCK]

These two are the same build with the same powers, but they feel very different. If you can get this sort of variety from the same build, think of the variety you can get out of the various builds offerend in the current rules. I think that adding in the complexity of a gestalt style play would make a ton of unanticipated problems.