D&D 4E 4ed leveling on gameplay

[xechnao]

I find it interesting that you speak about changes in combat gameplay from level to level, and give an example with a 6 level difference. Care to show me an example where gameplay radically changes from 1 level to the next?

There are dead levels in 3e. But everything (multiclassing is a good example) is build around levels. 4ed introduces and builds on new rules such as tiers and power choices so keep leveling as it is makes no sense. Furthermore, it makes even less sense speaking on terms of dead levels in 4ed.

Also, you state that 4e's powers will not be tied to class level, where do you see that? From what I read, there has been some musings that feats will be tied to tiers, although at this point it is merely just that, based on the 4 feats we have seen (toughness, GWA, etc).

I did not say that powers will not be tied to class levels. What I said is that it makes no sense that they are tied to class levels which seem to be a mechanism that just keeps track of garbage. Why not just tie powers to experience points directly and furthermore to campaign progress in a way that seems natural to pass from one tier to the next?

 

[Irda Ranger]

How do you think leveling will affect gameplay?

You'll fight monsters with different names. Instead of an Ogre, a Giant. Ogres are now easy, peasy. They're still Brutes with Clubs, but they're big, flame-y clubs now.

Certain other paths and options will be open to you, as you master the rituals to access the Shadowfell or the Astral Dominions. Your reputation within the game world will commensurately increase.

If everything is scaling in a linear way, the goal design is "the sweet spot" and monster roles such as minion, elite or brute can be modelled to fit encounters for every level how will the combat experience be different from one level to the next?

Appearances. Player perception. People like kicking the butt of the monster that gave them so much trouble a few levels ago. It's very satisfying.

Also, scenery changes, from local Baron's Country Court to the Emperor's Palace; from the backwoods of PoL to Arborea.

So why not skip leveling all-together? And keep only class powers to gain by taking and accomplishing specific quests that tie to the campaign.

There's no reason not to. That's the whole idea behind E6. I expect to see an H7 game released within a year of 4E's release, once they figure out the best way to do it.

I think it would be a pretty cool spin on D&D to say "We're going to focus on the story. To play in this quest you need to be Level X, so everyone roll up a character at Level X. Mechanically no XP will be given out; just Action Points. The primary rewards are story advancement and the chance to roleplay."

That may not be everyone's cup of tea, but for people who want to do that sort of thing, the option's certainly there.

 

[Incenjucar]

I find it interesting that you speak about changes in combat gameplay from level to level, and give an example with a 6 level difference. Care to show me an example where gameplay radically changes from 1 level to the next?

Are you saying that, say, the level you obtain Fireball doesn't change anything?

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

See OP...Please do not make general questions that lead to repeating what has been said already in the thread.

Please consider the possibility that people have read your OP but either do not understand your argument as stated or are not convinced of its premise.

I, too, don't see where you are coming from since if nothing else, levels are important for comparing your ability to others stronger/weaker than you. Even if you have about the same DCs or other stats as others of your level at any given time, you still want to have a way of distinguishing yourself from those 1, 2, 3, etc. levels above or below. Sure you, could make PCs the center of the mathematical universe, having them stay the same and having all monsters be expressed as +/- x levels relative to that, but given that there are usually only as many PCs as can be counted on one hand in a game/campaign and hundreds or thousands of monsters, it makes more sense to keep the monster stats static and have the PCs change (i.e. level) over time.

 

[Cadfan]

D&D combat and D&D play experience aren't all about whether you roll an 8 or above to hit when combatting a foe of equal level.

At first level, when you fight an orc, maybe you need an 8 to hit. And the fanciest trick you do when fighting an orc is maybe try to push him over and stab him. When you fight a giant, you die.

At 10th level, when you fight a giant, maybe you need an 8 to hit. But you've got a bunch of neat tactics you can use, special combat tricks you've learned since level 1. And when you fight orcs, you hit on a 2, and you carve through them like butter.

Its also worth noting that the "sweet spot stays about the same" system has been around for a VERY VERY LONG TIME in many RPGs and computer games. So if your reasoning leads to the conclusion that any game with this trait can't possibly be any good, you might want to reexamine your premises.

 

[xechnao]

To play in this quest you need to be Level X, so everyone roll up a character at Level X.

You can just say, to play in this campaign you need X powers. If you are so committed to quest requirements you could introduce mini challenges to each player or to the party and see how they cope with it before being recruited for such a quest and adjust what you feel.

BTW, what is the H7 game?

 

[Jack99]

Are you saying that, say, the level you obtain Fireball doesn't change anything?

Let's see

at level 1-2, i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with grease, color spray or sleep, before they spread out.

at level 3-4 i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with spells like glitterdust, before they spread out.

at level 5-6 i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with spells like fireball, before they spread out.

So no, not really. Only difference is that fireball does damage, the other spells incapacitates the opposition. Although I would never pick fireball, since there are much better spells imo, but that's another matter altogether.

 

[Xyl]

Consider this: In almost any TV show featuring a hero fighting against evil enemies, the major threats of the first season inevitably become goons to be fought in hordes two or three seasons later. However, there are always new, bigger threats, so the heroes always have about the same amount of challenge.

 

[Jack99]

You can just say, to play in this campaign you need X powers. If you are so committed to quest requirements you could introduce mini challenges to each player or to the party and see how they cope with it before being recruited for such a quest and adjust what you feel.

BTW, what is the H7 game?

Heroic 7 game, the supposed 4e variant of Epic 6 game, found in the houserules section. Basic premise is that you level to 6, after that, you only gain feats for every X xp that you gain.

 

[Incenjucar]

Let's see

at level 1-2, i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with grease, color spray or sleep, before they spread out.

at level 3-4 i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with spells like glitterdust, before they spread out.

at level 5-6 i try to be as quick as possible to catch as many foes as possible with spells like fireball, before they spread out.

So no, not really. Only difference is that fireball does damage, the other spells incapacitates the opposition. Although I would never pick fireball, since there are much better spells imo, but that's another matter altogether.

Yes. Doing damage and disabling are the exact same thing and are tactically indistinguishable.

Really, Fireball should just be a bigger Grease spell.