D&D 4E 4ed leveling on gameplay

[Irda Ranger]

IMO with minion-solo amd tier rules you are good to go. If you have progressed enough those orcs that were elite for you at the time they are nothing more than minions right now

So you'd replace 30 levels with just 4 levels? That sounds like a pretty short campaign.

 

[Irda Ranger]

By not having to keep track of the stats 3e levels come with.

Wrong. Because now you just have to keep track of something else.

Bah. I'm done with this thread. I can't believe I've wasted 20 minutes on it already.

 

[Oldtimer]

Yes, but spell progress was in theory build by being valued against these stat bonuses. To get my point see how PrC and their prequisites were modeled so to be balanced.

I'm sorry, but I don't get your point. How does PrC requirements show your point? And I disagree that spell progression, even in theory, was built by being valued against these stat bonuses. Are you saying that +3 BAB allows you to use third level spells, or what?

IMO with minion-solo amd tier rules you are good to go. If you have progressed enough those orcs that were elite for you at the time they are nothing more than minions right now

No, elite and minions does not enter the equation. They are still the same normal orcs. It's just that the Will Defence of a normal orc is now a push-over for my Hold person spell.

Levels in 4e will give you a scale of 30 points. Are you suggesting that a scale of only three (heroic-paragon-epic) or four (minion-normal-elite-solo) points is as good? To me, that sounds false.

 

[xechnao]

They still make a difference. You're not just learning new tricks; you're getting better at the tricks you know.

More to the point, it sounds to me like you're trying to fix something that ain't broken. Most people like earning their way to Level X. It's a shorthand for "I've fought this many battles; I can do these cool things." etc.

I have nothing against this. But find a simple way to do this that you do not have to keep track of so many data if they make no other difference. For example just have to write down promotion names such as minion, expert, elite, champion for PCs.

 

[xechnao]

Wrong. Because now you just have to keep track of something else.

Bah. I'm done with this thread. I can't believe I've wasted 20 minutes on it already.

Well, how about just having to keep track only of that something else, instead of having to keep track of that one plus of what you were keeping track of in 3e?

So you'd replace 30 levels with just 4 levels? That sounds like a pretty short campaign.

You are stretching my point. I do not want to analyze this as my idea comes more as of a question of game design but better think about 4 levels for each tier (minion, normal, elite, solo), each of them counting as a level where you get powers equivalent of two levels. You could get these powers in one go or in two separate quests. That can just makes 24 levels.

 

[Toben the Many]

As far as encounters being different from one level to the next....

We already have a level-based game that keeps it's sweet spot from one level to the next all the way to the end of the game. Mutants and Masterminds.

And the difference between the levels in Mutants and Masterminds is pretty remarkable. At PL 6 or so, you're a street fighter level hero, beating up thugs. At PL 10, you're like most heroes in a comic book, fighting thugs as well as super-powered characters. At PL 16 or higher, you're going into outer space or other dimensions fighting stuff there.

As far as difference in experience, in M&M, the higher in power level you go, the wider the variety of things that happens. At the low levels, you might throw a car or knock a hole in the wall. However, at higher and higher levels, you might knock down a building or take out the side of a mountain.

I would imagine that the D&D 4e experience would be much the same. As you progress in levels, you go from skirmishing a few kobolds to taking on a legion of orcs. You go from saving Farmer Brown's cottage to saving the whole village.

Also, the variety of things you are able to accomplish changes. As spellcasters gain more access to spells, they start being able to do more things on the battlefield and in the game, which leads to a wider variety of things that can happen.

 

[xechnao]

I'm sorry, but I don't get your point. How does PrC requirements show your point? And I disagree that spell progression, even in theory, was built by being valued against these stat bonuses. Are you saying that +3 BAB allows you to use third level spells, or what?

PrC requirements usually are on the lines of BABs, Caster levels and other stats. Yes, there are feats or skills to see, but you can't take on a PrC before you have reached the level of your class that gives you the stats required.

No, elite and minions does not enter the equation. They are still the same normal orcs. It's just that the Will Defence of a normal orc is now a push-over for my Hold person spell.

You failed to see my point. That same orc that was your elite enemy in your primes is a minion in front of you by the time you have become strong and famous.

Levels in 4e will give you a scale of 30 points. Are you suggesting that a scale of only three (heroic-paragon-epic) or four (minion-normal-elite-solo) points is as good? To me, that sounds false.

No, I am not suggesting so. I am suggesting to work on these type of rules (tier and minion...elite) and class powers to showing progress. IMO, a scale of around 30 points could be easily feasible based on these rules.

 

[Oldtimer]

PrC requirements usually are on the lines of BABs, Caster levels and other stats. Yes, there are feats or skills to see, but you can't take on a PrC before you have reached the level of your class that gives you the stats required.


You failed to see my point. That same orc that was your elite enemy in your primes is a minion in front of you by the time you have become strong and famous.



No, I am not suggesting so. I am suggesting to work on these type of rules (tier and minion...elite) and class powers to showing progress. IMO, a scale of around 30 points could be easily feasible based on these rules.

I give up. Yes, I fail to see your point and I don't think I ever will. Count me out of the discussion.

 

[The Little Raven]

Xechnao, I think you need to work on your presentation, because the biggest hurdle in this discussion appears to be that almost noone knows what you're trying to say or what point you're trying to make or exactly what change you're trying to suggest. It seems like you have a bunch of ideas that never get together into a cohesive point at any time.

 

[xechnao]

I give up. Yes, I fail to see your point and I don't think I ever will. Count me out of the discussion.

I too agree this discussion seems unecessarily long.
My last effort: In every PC sheet on the gametable some space and time will be used on keeping track of stat progression along the various levels. Furthermore in every 4ed book each entry will have some space for noting stats.

Why not be done with stats allready by giving just one table of unified rolls in PH (for example Basic saves and Basic attack bonuses everyone is supposed to have all the time) and just go on with noting class powers?

Furthermore have minion, elite ...etch rules as a standard table that notes bonuses or penalties. Thus each monster could have a version of a minion, elite or whatever as the DM chooses without taking space in the books for every version of every monster.

Well, not forget about tiers. Some monsters or PC powers will only be available at certain tiers or furthermore a monster that was solo in tier one it becomes a normal or elite in tier 2.