4th Ed low(ish) fantasy

[bramadan]

I was thinking of how to go about giving 4th ed more low-fantasy feel where conflict with other humans is reasonable alternative to fighting ever more powerful monsters and where magic items are not necessary for character progression.

What seems to me is that one way to get there is to get rid of the to-hit/defense escalator that pushed PCs and monsters up the power curve so fast as to make early opponents utterly meaningless already by the second half of the heroic tier (much less in late paragon).

Idea is to get rid of the magic item bonuses to hit and damage (while allowing the properties of magic items to hold) ability score increases and 1/2 level bonuses to everything, while retaining the HP gain, feats and powers resulting from level progression.
In addition, I would give PCs +1 to damage rolls for every three levels straight out (to compensate for the loss from items and stat bonus loss)

In exchange, monsters would lose their +1 per level benefits.

Feats like expertise would be allowed but would lose their tier scaling (because it only exists in order to "fix" the PCs up to correct monster scaling) . Increase in stats from epic destinies would be allowed.

Net result would be that the lower level challengers would still be challenging (particularly in sufficient numbers) for a number of levels - even though they would still be easy to dispatch individually (due to HP/damage discrepancy). PC sense of progression could be therefore maintained (through ever better powers and feats) even against relatively static adventuring environment (i.e. it would be possible to run a whole campaign in a single (normal-ish) city without having to dramatically change the circumstances to introduce lots of super-high level villains and monsters).

Let me know what you think.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I was thinking of how to go about giving 4th ed more low-fantasy feel where conflict with other humans is reasonable alternative to fighting ever more powerful monsters and where magic items are not necessary for character progression.

Well, fighting ever-more-powerful human rivals is also a possibility...

What seems to me is that one way to get there is to get rid of the to-hit/defense escalator that pushed PCs and monsters up the power curve so fast as to make early opponents utterly meaningless already by the second half of the heroic tier (much less in late paragon). ...
Idea is to get rid of the magic item bonuses to hit and damage (while allowing the properties of magic items to hold) ability score increases and 1/2 level bonuses to everything, while retaining the HP gain, feats and powers resulting from level progression.

That'd make combats longer - in rounds - as levels increase. You'd be able to use any 'level' enemies to challenge the party, since they'll prettymuch always be able to hit then, level just determining how fast they go down. Lower level challenges wouldn't get much easier as the party progressed in level, they'd just have less and less chance of chewing through the party's hps before the party beat them down.

 

[S'mon]

I was thinking of how to go about giving 4th ed more low-fantasy feel where conflict with other humans is reasonable alternative to fighting ever more powerful monsters and where magic items are not necessary for character progression.

The way 4e is designed to work, you can do this best by (a) using DMG 2 Inherent bonuses (b) Using human opponents at all levels and (c) scaling human opponents to the party by maintaining their XPV rather than their stats, eg:

Thog the Thug is a 500 XP foe, he's a:
1st level Solo
6th level Elite
10th level Standard monster
18th level Minion

The important thing is to get the NPC power demographics right at the start, in comparison to the sort of power you see starting PCs as having. Eg if 1st level PCs are fresh off the farm, Thog might just be a tough guy in the bar, whereas if 1st level PCs are already notable heroes, Thog might be the leader of a gang and a major local menace.

For my Wilderlands game, which operates along these lines, I started PCs at 3rd level as somewhat experienced heroes, and I based NPC demographics off the MM Human Rabble minion-2 as a typical untrained townsman, minion-5 for the typical human barbarian tribesman, Human Town Guard soldier-3 as a typical small town guard soldier, etc.

 

[Rechan]

Also you can easily remove magical items while still providing the bonuses.

+1 Magic bonus to attack/damage on levels 2, 7, 12, 17, 22, 27
+1 to Defenses on levels 4, 9, 14, 19, 24, 29.

But honestly? You want to get the low-fantasy feel? Just don't level the PCs all that often. Or set a level cap. Only go through the heroic tier, where they're just fighting humans.

 

[Dragonblade]

I have never actually run a game by stripping out the bonuses but it seems like it would work fine.

Not sure if this math works since its off the top of my head, but generally speaking you could:

For monsters subtract their level from all defenses and bonuses (but not damage).
For PCs, eliminate the bonuses from Expertise feats, magic items, and 1/2 level, and don't increase stats when you level.

Then grant maybe +5 to damage per attack per tier to PCs (to avoid grind and to keep pace with escalating HPs, and to represent that they are more experienced and thus deadlier in a fight).

Now you have a game, where leveling really only adds HP and more options regarding powers and feats. Higher level opponents will be deadlier (able to deal more damage) and tougher (more HP), but are still hittable and thus can be threatened by lower level foes.

It would add some grittiness to the world. A sizable force of heroic tier soldiers could now take down a paragon level monster like an adult dragon, or something. It would be difficult but doable. Under RAW, it would likely be a slaughter since hitting would be nigh impossible.

And while PCs would still be tough, they would actually have to respect the threat of getting overwhelmed by a bunch of town guards, as opposed to being virtual demigods if there is more than a ten level difference.

The cool thing is the game would still play smoothly with all the good 4e cinematic gameplay intact. Unlike most games that advertise grittiness but do so by competely gimping PCs, or making the world over the top lethal. Like old school Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play where you'll be lucky not to lose a limb or an eye in any fight. I'm not a fan of that style of play.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I was thinking of how to go about giving 4th ed more low-fantasy feel where conflict with other humans is reasonable alternative to fighting ever more powerful monsters and where magic items are not necessary for character progression.

IMO, fighting humans and humanoids up to about 15th-level (mid-paragon) works. I think someone worked out that, in 3.x, Olympic-level athletes could be considered 15th-level characters. (IMO, high heroic level minions with skill-boosting abilities could represent people like Albert Einstein.)

What seems to me is that one way to get there is to get rid of the to-hit/defense escalator that pushed PCs and monsters up the power curve so fast as to make early opponents utterly meaningless already by the second half of the heroic tier (much less in late paragon).

I don't think that's really necessary. By the time your PCs are paragon, the scale of threats they're facing has changed. Now an entire army is needed to challenge them... or that somewhat rare band of high-power NPCs.

Idea is to get rid of the magic item bonuses to hit and damage (while allowing the properties of magic items to hold) ability score increases and 1/2 level bonuses to everything, while retaining the HP gain, feats and powers resulting from level progression.
In addition, I would give PCs +1 to damage rolls for every three levels straight out (to compensate for the loss from items and stat bonus loss)

Use the inherent item rules. That's easier and a bit more balanced too.

In exchange, monsters would lose their +1 per level benefits.

No. IMO, that's a bad idea. Level should still mean something.

Feats like expertise would be allowed but would lose their tier scaling (because it only exists in order to "fix" the PCs up to correct monster scaling) . Increase in stats from epic destinies would be allowed.

Net result would be that the lower level challengers would still be challenging (particularly in sufficient numbers) for a number of levels - even though they would still be easy to dispatch individually (due to HP/damage discrepancy). PC sense of progression could be therefore maintained (through ever better powers and feats) even against relatively static adventuring environment (i.e. it would be possible to run a whole campaign in a single (normal-ish) city without having to dramatically change the circumstances to introduce lots of super-high level villains and monsters).

Let me know what you think.

IMO, that would result in "grind". PCs almost always do low damage. You'd end up with wizards constantly spamming that AoE fire at-will attack in an effort to slowly crisp those enemies to death. They'll win, it's pre-ordained, but it'll take many many rounds. Which would cause you to wonder... why are the NPCs still fighting? They should be running after they've lost a few of their number.

According to the rules of movie plots (TM), the main villain should always be more powerful than the hero. And each adventure/campaign portion is basically a movie with its own "boss".

The types of encounters could change. New groups could emerge and/or move into the city. The PCs can discover a hidden factional war. The mayor is revealed to be evil, so he gets himself turned into a lich, giving him a power-up substantially higher than the template would indicate. Social encounters have DCs based on level, and politics can involve outside forces trying to outright conquer the city. Even fighting crime could still work; after the PCs have knocked out the third thieves' guild in as many years, the survivors will have learned, gotten outside talent, and set up a nasty memorable trap-filled encounter.