4E 4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey all! :)

Okay, this is a thread to talk about peoples views on 4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook. Whether or not they want products updated, revised, or simply left alone.

So what do we know about 4th Edition so far.

Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.

However, I do sell my pdfs on my own (not in tandem with Mongoose) so I am not sure how that side of things will work.

We don't know a lot about the system except that its going to be a lot less clumsy and less rules heavy. I've tried my best to boil epic gaming down to the core in order to simplify Epic/Immortal gaming, but even I can only go so far. So at this point I would be leaning towards embracing a new system if it really simplified a lot of things.

Remember that shorter stat blocks and greater ease of building means books (especially Monster books) will get done faster and require less errata. Or alternately that books can have more monsters and gods (pound for pound) than they otherwise could.

For the moment we can but speculate as to whats going to happen.

But I am curious to hear peoples thoughts on the matter.

Are any of you opposed to embracing 4th Edition, especially if its simpler and 'better'* mechanics?

*from the presentation sounds like all the classes are going to be better balanced and more fun.

It also appears core D&D will scale to 30th-level, which is fantastic news. :D

Also it seems Orcus will be in the Monster Manual - thats awesome news for 'epic' gamers, assuming that term still applies (unless of course its that Fiendish Codex Orcus - ouch).

Obviously none of this changes Ascension or Gods & Monsters at this point. I wonder would anyone be interested in a 4th Edition Epic Bestiary: Volume One revision? What might be possible would be to update Bestiary Volume 1 and join it with Bestiary Volume 2.

Another possibility could be that I do two versions of each book, a 3.5 compatible version and a 4th Edition version.

Again, I'm just brainstorming out loud, so give me your views.
 

Pssthpok

Visitor
I think for all our sakes (and yours, really) you should avoid trying to make 2 versions of each book.

I'm wholly in favor of the new edition, and the idea of merging Bestiary 1 with Bestiary 2 and just 4thEdding the whole lot sounds like a good idea to me.

In terms of Ascension... I'm not sure progress past 30th-level is supported in the way that it was implied in the ELH. I think that 4th Ed simply doesn't account for it and won't support it.
That being the potential case, I don't know what room there will be for the IHB. You might have to contrive your own progressions after 30th, and that could be messy.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Pssthpok said:
I think for all our sakes (and yours, really) you should avoid trying to make 2 versions of each book.
Okay, okay! :p

Pssthpok said:
I'm wholly in favor of the new edition, and the idea of merging Bestiary 1 with Bestiary 2 and just 4thEdding the whole lot sounds like a good idea to me.
:)

Pssthpok said:
In terms of Ascension... I'm not sure progress past 30th-level is supported in the way that it was implied in the ELH. I think that 4th Ed simply doesn't account for it and won't support it.
All the better for me then. :p

Pssthpok said:
That being the potential case, I don't know what room there will be for the IHB. You might have to contrive your own progressions after 30th, and that could be messy.
It appears at first glance as if 4th Ed. characters may be more powerful than their 3/3.5 counterparts, thus a slightly lower level/HD distribution for immortals may be better.

As for creating my own progressions, I think that could easily be done using the various powers of Ascension and some new material.

In fact I really like the idea of building say the Fighter Class for instance, out to 100th-level or whatever. I think that will really simplify character creation.

Or perhaps I could create my own epic 'Prestige' Classes to fill those gaps rather than extend the core classes - whatever they will be. That would give me better control over things. Dimensional Prestige Classes for sidereals sound cool.
 

Pssthpok

Visitor
It appears at first glance as if 4th Ed. characters may be more powerful than their 3/3.5 counterparts, thus a slightly lower level/HD distribution for immortals may be better.
It seems so, yes... perhaps a lean back towards the 3.0 DDG would be in order? While there were no HD limits, really, there were averages. Something like +10 maximum HD per tier (demigods could go to 40th, lesser deities 50th, and so on, with greater deities being able to reach as high as 70th level).

Or perhaps I could create my own epic 'Prestige' Classes to fill those gaps rather than extend the core classes - whatever they will be. That would give me better control over things. Dimensional Prestige Classes for sidereals sound cool.
Hmm, Epic Fighter being a special PrC? Interesting.
Next would be Divine Fighter, then Sidereal/Dimensional Fighter I assume?
 

dante58701

Visitor
I will never buy nor support 4th edition material. I think the system is fine the way it is and any further meddling is just an attempt to milk more money out of the rich and stupid lapdogs of the WOTC franchise. I am fully against any material that isn't 3.5 or earlier. There are already thousands of books out there for 3.5 and it would be nonsensical and pointless (not to mention extremely greedy) of WOTC to make 4.0, an edition they initially denied they would ever make. 4.0 will undoubtedly not be compatible with 3.5. Which would render everyones collections of 3.0 and 3.5 material obsolete. To even claim they could be compatible would be a mistake at best and an outright lie at worst. To further complicate an already complicated game in the name of false simplicity is :):):):):):):):). The last thing anyone needs are a bunch of rich bastards making new books that tell us all that our current libraries are perhaps the biggest waste of money since the beginning of time. It's enough to make many gamers pull out their hair at the roots. Besides they aren't releasing this garbage until 2008. But hey, if you want to completely screw up The Immortal's Handbook...be my guest. It's ur show afterall. Just don't expect everyone to show up with money in hand for a product that's changes to conform with the corporate crap of 4.0...which will undoubtedly become 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, ect. until the popularity of purchasing reprinted crap becomes nonexistent and all diehard fans of 3.0/3.5 material become completely disillusioned with the concept of gaming as a whole. You have a fine product as it is, you just need to stop second guessing yourself based on the actions of the lemmings and drones of WOTC. While we all understand the need to appeal to consumers, you will find that most consumers will not want to buy 4.0. The vast majority of 4.0 consumers will be teenagers that weren't even alive when Gary Gygax still owned TSR. And the vast majority of them will only be interested in it for the short term and not the long haul. 4.0 will be yet another stupid fad that will be wiped clean off the earth in just short of a decade. While all the real gamers will still be playing 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3.0, and 3.5.
 
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Ashardalon

Visitor
Upper_Krust said:
Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.
That information is somewhat outdated, and wrong. The evil, money-grubbing greed demons at WotC, for the third time, will be providing a free license, the OGL, and the SRD to fit, which be extension should also be free. The future of the d20 STL is still open, but since using it has become something of a negative, it might simply be abandoned. The license fee was an idea that was entertained, but dropped since it ultimately does not ensure quality products.

Link - http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905801 This thread discusses and confirms (on a later page) the OGL status.
 

mercucio

Visitor
Upper Krust said:
Well we know its not OGL, but that thirdparty licensees can get a license from WotC. So I would assume Mongoose would be one of those companies, and since I am affiliated with them I suspect it wouldn't be difficult to have future Immortals Handbooks 4th Edition compatible.
Where is that quoted? The article I read on ICV2 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11123.html) states the OGL will remain.
 

GQuail

Visitor
To be honest, after waiting a year from the "release date" of Ascension, the last thing I'd want to add in is /more/ reasons to require you to have to go back over old work rather than type up and release new stuff!

There's a worry here that you could end up the Duke Nukem Forever of the D20 world: acomputer game put on hold so many times that, every few years, they have to abandon all work and start again because their starting engine is so outdated it's useless. Considering how long the Immortals Handbook has been brewing, I'd far rather it just finally came out and was complete (even if it was for an outdated edition) than have me still waiting here a decade later for the final books, only to be told it's going to be 5E compliant now! ;-)

I would carry on with 3.5 for the moment. If nothign else, without seeing the new edition you can't tell (a) if it interests you, and the rest of your buyers; (b) how awkward 3.X to 4th Ed conversion will be; and (c) how the differing game world assumptions might affect your product.
 

WarDragon

Visitor
Stick with 3.5. Everything I've read and seen about 4E fills me with dread; the entire purpose of it is to dumb things down, and force us to buy every book twice, to use that dumbass online play thing.
 

dante58701

Visitor
:):):):) online play...it's just more Evercrack. We need that like we need to have our genitalia removed and shoved through a blender. Like I stated earlier. IT'S A HUGE WASTE OF OUR TIME AND MONEY!!!

3.5 is definitely my limit. Anything beyond that is pure bullshiit.
 

Pssthpok

Visitor
It's
a) going to be the standard. If you don't want to play it, no one is forcing you but you will surely be left behind insofar as material support and new product. Ask th 2E dinosaurs how that's been treating them.
b) still a pen-and-paper game; no one is forcing you to use the online supplemental materials. And it's not like it's an MMORPG, either; the virtual tabletop is a way for people to use a grid and throw dice together on the internet rather than anonymous dicerolling programs and whateveryou'vegot. Hell, I use a computer for 3rd Edition... what difference is it to me if WotC has stuff I can buy online that lets me make a little 3D guy or lets me peruse digital copies of my own books. :\
c) taking into account, from my understanding, what the majority of their fanbase and the millions of manhours of playtesting have shown them. If you fall into the minority and have nothing but venomous bias and gainsaying, well... sorry, lads. 4th Ed is a reality now and I have a feeling that most people will make the switch; it's just a matter of how far behind the curve they're going to be when they do.
d) looking like it actually gets back to what the majority of editions of the game have held true to: skills in a "proficiency" system, simpler combat, simpler statblocks. So, from an essential, holistic approach, it's more to the core of D&D than 3rd Ed, which for all intents and purposes has deviated so far from 1E and 2E that, as we experienced 8 years ago, it is utterly unlike any other edition of D&D. 4E looks like it's done experimenting and is ready to present itself as a cleaner, funner, more manageable game all around.

Just because, for some reason, you might like the current skill system (because figuring out all those points per level and X Int, at whatever class makes you good at math, or whatever) doesn't mean that the streamlined skills is a "dumbing down" of the rules. Consider it a matter of cutting the fat. The same goes for anything else that WotC has trimmed and simplified.
 

dante58701

Visitor
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
 
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ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
dante58701 said:
Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
But...Gary has spoken often in recent years about how he prefers rules-light games and feels 3e was too complex. There is a dichotomy in what you're saying.
 

Holy Bovine

Visitor
dante58701 said:
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
Are you really this stupid or do you have software that helps you?
 

Holy Bovine

Visitor
dante58701 said:
:):):):) online play...it's just more Evercrack. We need that like we need to have our genitalia removed and shoved through a blender. Like I stated earlier. IT'S A HUGE WASTE OF OUR TIME AND MONEY!!!

3.5 is definitely my limit. Anything beyond that is pure bullshiit.
Well you do need that though!
 

jareddm

Visitor
In terms of the Immortals Handbook, I think it's better to stick with 3.5. It is what we're familiar and knowledgeable about. Things become much more difficult, especially when it comes to editing, when not everyone is an expert and can spot a misplaced number on a stat block from 50 yards.

I also don't see any reason to switch the moment 4e comes out. Or ever really. When 3e was first coming out, there was still a fair amount of 2e material that was being thought up. I think this same overlap in material will occur well after 4e is released.
 

Axolotl

Visitor
Everybody calm down we all know that Dante says stupid things can we just either use reasoned arguements or just don't post anything. I currantly know nothing about 4ED as I've just been on holiday however. This does pose a serious problem for the Immortals Handbook. Moving to 4ED will help in the long run but it means redoing whats already been done, which is very bad. Also how well intergrated are epic rules? If they are part of the core rules then hopefully they will learn from the mistakes of 3ED. However if there are no currant epic rules then Upper Krust will have to design some new ones, which will then be replaced by official ones causing everything to be redone again. How easy will the immortals handbook be to cnvert to 4Ed that is the most important question.

I think that all future work should be done in 4Ed however it would be advisable to wait till it comes for you to decide.
 

GQuail

Visitor
Pssthpok said:
Just because, for some reason, you might like the current skill system (because figuring out all those points per level and X Int, at whatever class makes you good at math, or whatever) doesn't mean that the streamlined skills is a "dumbing down" of the rules. Consider it a matter of cutting the fat. The same goes for anything else that WotC has trimmed and simplified.
I'm not necesarilly against 4th Ed, I should add: I'm definatly picking it up, and as heavilly invested in 3.X as I am I wouldn't put it past this edition to take over if some of the promises they've made come true. (Certainly, speeding up skills is one area I would like) Many of the OMG A NEW EDITION OH NOES!!!11!!!1ONE cries fall flat to me too: But I still think that moving this project to another game system is not the way to go, more because it's a question of a lot more work being done and a longer timescale before it finally sees print.

Still, without seeing 4th Ed, I have no idea how much conversion work is required: or even if this project would ne necesary at all. I mean, didn't this whole thing basically grow out of unhappiness as to how 3.0s Deities & Demigods dealt with deities? The rejigging of the core rules seems to include changes of what Xth level means, for any given level: without seeing the finished package, this might mean Upper_Krust is actually comparatively happy with it. Unlikely, but, hey...
 

Pssthpok

Visitor
It's true that, unlike the move from 3.0 to 3.5, we don't really know that "levels" are worth in 4th Ed. Very likely the power is relatively the same (possibly stronger in 4E), but we just don't know enough to say anything.

What it comes down to for UK is whether or not he wants to finish Ascension and go on hiatus (a good idea, I think; the man needs time to convert his notes to text files without having to worry about getting an update done in time) while we wait for 4E. Then, when it comes out and if it's a better system (and I think it will be), Krusty can opt into converting what needs it.

That's the problem with huge, drag-ass projects like this (no offense, UK): you can't finish them in time before there's a sweeping change of the machine with which you're working. I for one feel bad for UK, but if he'd let some lackeys in to do the gruntwork he'd be farther along than he is now, plain and simple. I've seen other D&D boards/websites do that: collaborate with others - people that can be trusted, I certainly imagine - so as to fraction the actual work that needs doing. I UK decides to convert to 4th Edition I would hope he'd consider that avenue.
 

scruffygrognard

Adventurer
dante58701 said:
Welcome to the flight of self delusion. Our self appointed Captian Psstpoke was just announcing our arrival into the realm of nightmare and has opted for the lemming vote.

Is that a bit over the top...sure. But 4.0 can kiss my hairy white ass. Oversimplification is more sycophantic catering to stupid people who can't even be bothered to learn a little mathematics. The point of D&D was to have fun AND intellectually stimulate all the bored intelligent people who have better things to do than suck it up and do what the lemmings want to do.

Im definitely going to continue my venom spewing on this issue, because venom spewing is a definite necessity. Someone needs to stick up for the intellectuals. :):):):) oversimplification. 3.5 is already simple. If it gets any simpler it's just going to get stupid. And I like those feats and skill ranks the way they are. WOTC can bite me.

And who the hell needs more material from WOTC. They've already printed all the books any gamer could ever ask for. Why would anyone need more than a half a dozen gaming books anyways (I personally have a couple hundred...but that's just me). This is definitely a marketing scam for their online crap.

Im definitely going to boycott any and all 4.0 products. I hope 4.0 drags WOTC and HASBRO under. They deserve that much. Then Gary Gygax can buy it back and salvage what little is left of HIS game.
I'm not as angry as Dante BUT think that 4.0 is moving the game into the World of Warcraft realm and moving away from D&D's roots (purposely).

The 30-level advancement, move away from Greyhawk as being the core world, the Mortal Combat-esque character abilities, and the heavy reliance on online content (which must be subscribed to at $10/month) are WotC spitting in the eye of D&D's roots and D&D's core fans.

I will definitely be sticking with 3.5 (and am encouraging my gaming group to do the same) and Castles & Crusades (MY D&D game of choice at this point).

To get back on-topic, I'd be more interested in you made the Immortal's Handbook for 3.5 and/or C&C than for 4.0.
 

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