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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Phillip Larwood" data-source="post: 4376014" data-attributes="member: 32466">This has been a very interesting conversation so far. A number of things have been brought up and a lot of problems with 4e have been addressed. The discussion of the stunning effect has been of particular interest in this thread because of its obvious implications on Immortal-level play. Of course, I would caution against believing everything that a prefabricated (often mathematical) battle simulation controlled by a single entity for the purpose of evaluating how you can bend or break the rules tells you. Players rarely play like that around the table, or battle opponents in some sort of arena-style situation when there is neither a before nor after.  In my battle-simulation Orcus would have a horde of about 100 undead and demons around him and would be immune to stun attacks because he can. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> It will be interesting to see what Upper Krust does with immortals. The detractors of 4e rightly or wrongly have pointed out that Orcus is now little more than a big combat brute as opposed to the undead spellcasting dynamo he once was and that all epic-level opponents are little more than combat fodder. Will immortal opponents be likewise? Will Odin be little more than a big combat brute with 6 or 7 powers?  Here's an interesting question. How will Eternity Publishing handle the fact that the other player's handbooks might be just around the corner? Will provisions be made in the Immortal Handbooks for barbarian, monk or psion characters? Has this question already been answered? Is there going to be a single tier after the epic tier or multiple tiers? Are you going to expand on the existing tables (if you can) or come up with your own variations? Will you change the dynamic of character optimization or keep it as is? Will you introduce new builds that are only available to immortal characters?  Can QPs and godly domains even work in a 4e universe (domains are certainly irrelevant to clerics)? There are so many questions and I haven't even scratched the surface. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />   By the way, I'm happy to be in both the 1st tier and 2nd tier group of monster winners (with the ruin of ages and mahalat). I didn't even know people have been voting on them. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /></blockquote>

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