4th Edition Improvements (please read OP)

[Final Attack]

I'll be running an intro game for possibly a large group of people on the weekend. Many of them are trialing 4th ed to see if they want to convert. Forums use to be filled with 4th Vs 3.5 and in which there were some really good top ten improvements to DnD. However I've been playing 4th since release and I've forgotten most of these improvements.

I'm looking for a top ten list of improvements from 3.5 to 4th. Eg. no save or die.

NOTE: I'm not looking to insight any version wars, so please ONLY post if you can list some improvements to the 4th edition. It will help me win over new players, because I don't really want to convert back to 3rd.

 

[weem]

Personally, one of the things I really liked right off the bat was FORT, REFLEX and WILL as defenses and how they tied into the various attributes. I like that there are abilities that attack the REFLEX instead of AC for one example - it just makes much more sense.

It's not that I thought the previous ways (saves etc) were bad, it's just that this aspect really stuck out at me right away as something I liked a lot.

 

[Admiral Caine]

I don't find it as easy to "dump stat". You can still do it, but there are more consequences.

I guess a variation of that is.. that all stats are significant / useful / essential to at least some classes.

 

[Nightson]

DMing in general, and monster design in particular, are much, much easier.

 

[TwinBahamut]

1. Cleaned up the "math". Probably better stated as smoothed out level progressions so, unlike 3E where the Fighters and Wizards start with nearly the same chance of hitting on an attack roll and end up with Fighters being guaranteed to hit with an attack roll and Wizards pretty much can't, in 4E there is a constant difference between them so Fighters always have a good chance, and Wizards always have a slightly lower but still very real chance. This also applies just as much to skill checks and trained/untrained skills.

2. Roles. It is a lot easier to know both what a class is designed to do and how it compares to other classes when it comes to building a party. The limiting "Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric" assumptions of the previous editions, which often made it hard to create a solid team using classes other than those four, have been completely replaced. This makes class choice much more flexible than before.

3. The new monster design paradigm, designed so that the baseline of a typical encounter is a group of five monsters at your level rather than just one monster of your level. The experience values for such monsters, and their more varied and tactical abilities, means that complex and fun encounters are much easier to create and run.

4. Minion, Elite, and Solo monsters. This basically just adds on to the advantage of point 3, but it is worth mentioning on its own.

5. The new magic item system. The "Big 6" have been removed, and the new layout for how magic items are described, as well as the kinds of abilities that they have, leads to a much more balanced, easy to use, varied, and generally fun experience. No more giving up on badass gauntlets that let you pitch a giant axe like a boomerang just because you need Gloves of Dexterity.

6. Powers. Now everyone in the game gets to perform cool things as part of their basic class abilities. This is particularly nice for classes like the old Fighter.

7. Healing Surges. Thanks to these, characters are not dependent on a healer class in order to heal themselves and get through a long series of battles. At the same time, they provide a great method of measuring worn down the party has become.

8. Simpler basic rules. I can't even describe how much easier it is to understand and run things like Opportunity Attacks and Aerial Combat. Improvements to the clarity of special conditions and special abilities also has helped a lot.

9. Rituals. Now most of the useful effects that defined the old Wizard class have been systematized into their own category, so you no longer need to have a Wizard in order to benefit from their effects. This is a huge improvement for campaign building, too.

10. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. These have all the benefits of the old Prestige Classes, except now you don't need to stop progressing in your main class in order to gain the benefit of one. The also add some punch to the already useful Tier system.

4E is not perfect by a long shot, but it does have a number of clear improvements over older versions of the game. I wish you good luck in persuading other people to convert.

 

[Rechan]

To be honest, I think many of the 4e improvements happen on the DM side of the screen.

Here's a few I can think of:

1) No long spell lists to look up and/or have ready. Nor long spell lists to decide what to prepare for the day.

To the dedicated Wizard-player, this will likely be a disappointment. But to anyone whose reason for not playing a spellcaster was the enormous amount of options and rules to keep track of, this should be an incentive.

In addition, all relevant information for any ability can easily fill a 3x5 note card.

2) Non-spellcasters have more things to do in combat. They simply have more combat options than what is now a Basic Attack.

3) "Healing" characters do more than just heal. Even in 3e, to cast a healing spell, you had to use a standard action and be adjacent to the ally. Now, act of using a Healing power is a minor one at ranged; you can still attack and move in the same round.

And, everyone can at least heal themselves once. This offers a little less pressure on the healer.

4) Classes no longer compete for relevance in combat vs. out of combat. If you want to play a fighter, you don't have to be useless when you're not hitting things. Granted, rogues still get more skills.

5) No more adjusting stats on the fly. Computing your to-hit bonus because someone put a buff on you is a simple plus to your normal to-hit. A debuff is a simple -2. That's it.

6) There's no single die-roll that will take you out of the rest of the fight. Not even "Hold Person" effects (except for Stun, but those are quite rare), and don't last the whole fight.

Now, here is my suggestion to you. Do not get everyone together, and have them make characters. Teach them the rules first. Let them see it in play first.

The reason? If someone doesn't understand how the rules work, someone is bound to pick powers that work differently than what they think. The significance of this status affect vs. that one can be overlooked. The utiltiy of this At-Will over that one.

My suggestion: make a bunch of pre-gens. You likely know who you're playing with, so take some guesses as to what they might like, and shoot for the gold. (Hint: If someone likes a fighter-mage, go for the Swordmage). Take a look at the preview classes in Dragon (if nothing else, make a barbarian). Try to make at least two of each class, or two of each role, to demonstrate how they play differently. A sword-and-board 'defend the group' fighter fights different from a 'charge and smash' two handed fighter. A warlock and a rogue just behave differently (and an Artful dodger is more skilled at moving people around, positioning them, while a Brutal Scoundrel is a frontliner.)

 

[Brown Jenkin]

4E is not perfect by a long shot, but it does have a number of clear improvements over older versions of the game. I wish you good luck in persuading other people to convert.

Just remember that not everyone will share your views about what is an improvement or not. You may not even want to call them improvements, but rather changes to the system that you like. Calling something an improvement implies that there was something wrong with the previous version. If any of your players like/liked an aspect that you think has been "improved" you might end up going down the wrong road if you even tangentially imply that what they like is bad/wrong. Stick with calling things just changes and let your enthusiasm during play speak for itself.

Good luck.

 

[delericho]

The two big ones (for me):

1) I really really like the new encounter design paradigm, and the solo/elite/regular/minion split that goes with it.

2) I really like the concept of Skill Challenges - they're such a versatile mechanic, and something we really should have had all along. (It's a shame that they got the maths wrong. But the concept is sound.)

 

[Rechan]

Remember, this is also an exercise in showing off the system. You're doing a sales pitch, ultimately. So I would say that you should try to make this exercise as polished as you can, in order to avoid bad impressions.

Also, think about how you are going to present the rules. How are you going to do this in combat?

In general, you don't want to "teach the rules as you play". That usually leads to really slow, slow plodding. Lots of confusion, because different classes do different things. It's also like trying to teach the rules of chess (how pieces move, strategy, etc) while you're playing the game of chess.

So, offer a 'tutorial'. Just drop a bunch of minions on the board, and go very slow. Tell them to just use their at wills for two rounds. Move the minions into convenient positioning, and encourage a person or two to use an encounter power that would be the most effective (minions crowded around a character, then instruct them to use a close burst).

Next, toss them into some actual encounters, and make the encounters fun. I suggest taking a look at this thread on encounter design to avoid "grinding". That way, you just don't toss the PCs into a 10x10 room with some kobolds and say "Go".

Give them incentives to use their action points and daily powers. Some players have a habit of hoarding their powers. Say "Go ahead and use it, this is the last fight". Or "I'll let you recharge it for the next fight".

Just remember that not everyone will share your views about what is an improvement or not. You may not even want to call them improvements, but rather changes to the system that you like. C

This is good advice. Additionally, just realize that some people like some things you don't. You might like the more streamlined system. Meanwhile, I have a player who loved how the 3e rules could build anything, right down to the most minute detail, and enjoyed spending skill points.

Also, realize you can't win 'em all; not everyone will convert. You might be lucky, you might have a full house of everyone that loves the game. But more than likely, one or two are going to be either reluctant or just not like it at all.

 

[Shroomy]

I really think that the multi-classing mechanics are one of the best innovations in 4e. I've seen a lot of people make the mistake of only refering to the initial multi-class and power swap feat chains as the "multi-classing mechanic", but 4e multi-classing also involves feats with class prerequisites, paragon paths (both cross-class and those of your own class that combine features from other archetypes or classes), weapon specialization, paragon multi-classing, and epic destinies. When you add it all up, you'll find a very flexible system that can produce a wide variety of character types (even more so as new stuff is released) without creating overly weak or strong characters.