4th Edition Improvements (please read OP)

[Rechan]

I really think that the multi-classing mechanics are one of the best innovations in 4e..

Don't forget things like the Dhampyr/Spellscarred 'Template Emulation' functions.

 

[tuxgeo]

I'll be running an intro game for possibly a large group of people on the weekend. Many of them are trialing 4th ed to see if they want to convert. . . .

I'm looking for a top ten list of improvements from 3.5 to 4th. Eg. no save or die. . . .

Previous responders (especially TwinBahamut) have listed the big improvements. I might also add:
-> No dead levels: each character gets some new benefit each new level.
-> More Feats: each character gets lots of Feats, hence more customization. The Feat selection in the PHB is pretty good, and more are coming.
-> "Brew Potion" is Level 1 now (per the August 2008 Errata), so Healing potions can be available right from the start. This is huge, because healing is one thing that the good guys do most of the time but the bad guys hardly do at all: It's the party's signal combat advantage.
-> If I were you, I wouldn't emphasize the multiclassing. That's an afterthought, not a major selling point.

 

[Sir Brennen]

1. Cleaned up the "math". Probably better stated as smoothed out level progressions so, unlike 3E where the Fighters and Wizards start with nearly the same chance of hitting on an attack roll and end up with Fighters being guaranteed to hit with an attack roll and Wizards pretty much can't, in 4E there is a constant difference between them so Fighters always have a good chance, and Wizards always have a slightly lower but still very real chance. This also applies just as much to skill checks and trained/untrained skills.

This is also true for saving throws (nka 'Defenses'). In 3E, especially at higher levels, your good saving throw starts to get closer to 'automatic' (barring rolling a 1), and your other saves you generally are going to fail. 4E evens this out quite a bit, so the variance in saves is no where nearly as dramatic, and you have a decent chance to succeed on any defense.

I must say, tho, I agree with the other posters that actually playing a session, with pre-gens, is going to be more effective than just listing the new edition's perceive virtues. You can point out things as you go along, but in the end, the players are either going to enjoy the game or they aren't.

 

[haaz]

1. Fighters have more options than before, and can deal heavy damage just like a wizard does.

2. Spells are just like weapon attacks.

3. No need to track effects on 42 rounds: effects last until the end of your next turn, the end of the encounter, or when you save.

4. No spell preparation (it means you don't have to choose each morning between a thousand spells)

5. Exciting rules when coming at 0 hp.

6. No Save-or-die effects.

7. Ongoing damage

 

[Rechan]

No negative levels, or paying XP. Ever.

 

[yesnomu]

This is also true for saving throws (nka 'Defenses'). In 3E, especially at higher levels, your good saving throw starts to get closer to 'automatic' (barring rolling a 1), and your other saves you generally are going to fail. 4E evens this out quite a bit, so the variance in saves is no where nearly as dramatic, and you have a decent chance to succeed on any defense.

Eh. There aren't many "only succeed on a 20, only fail on a 1" situations anymore, but with the way the stat increases work, PCs tend to end up with a pretty big variance on defenses. Attacking a Wizard's Fort, for example, is usually a pretty safe bet. Ditto with a Barb's Reflex. And a DM should probably think twice about attacking a Paladin's AC, even with Divine Challenge factored in. Though it is better than it used to be, I suppose.

My personal favorite changes:
-Action economy. No more summoners getting four or five the turns of anyone else and bogging down the game.
-Easy to DM for. Encounter planning is a snap, and the clear use of keywords mean less head-scratching and rule-searching at the table.
-Character creation is super-easy (at least compared to high-level 3.5, it's not quite at Mouse Guard's level yet). Every character is able to contribute to party success in and out of combat.
-Roles system means PCs have clear strengths and weaknesses. This encourages them to work as a team, instead of acting like spellcaster meatshields. Additionally, means that class selection is open to just about anything (no more cleric required since they're the only one who can Raise Dead or remove negative levels). An entirely non-magical party is not only possible, but balanced and effective!
-Magic items are so incredibly simple. Characters only need three to be up-to-par, and get them automatically in creation.
-Having no iterative attacks speeds up the round, and encourages mobility, rather than just standing still and full-attacking.
-No dead levels, as mentioned before. Something new to choose every level.
-Easy, balanced multiclassing. Spellcaster multiclassing is no longer a trap!

That's enough for now, but there's plenty more changes I approve of.

 

[LostSoul]

Just remember that not everyone will share your views about what is an improvement or not. You may not even want to call them improvements, but rather changes to the system that you like. Calling something an improvement implies that there was something wrong with the previous version. If any of your players like/liked an aspect that you think has been "improved" you might end up going down the wrong road if you even tangentially imply that what they like is bad/wrong. Stick with calling things just changes and let your enthusiasm during play speak for itself.

I agree. Highlight the main differences and try to be neutral about their value - that doesn't mean you can't describe how they impact play, but you don't want to say that one style of play is superior.

eg. Fort, Ref, and Will as Defences.

These are now DCs. The attacker rolls against a static number instead of the defender rolling a d20 + mod.

One of the impacts of this change is that you can now use a regular, basic attack that targets one of these Defenses without having to work out a Save DC.

This can come up in play when a player tries something not covered by the rules - a trip, for example, without using a power. Take the player's description of his action and then decide if it targets Fortitude (pushing the target over), Reflex (sweeping out his legs), or Will (tricking him into taking a step back, falling over).


So something like that, but better.

 

[defendi]

I think it's going to be all about the encounters. How much do you need rules outside the encounters, any way. So these aren't improvements, just suggestions:

1) Get the most interesting encounters possible. I fell in love with the system the day I shifted away from a kobold and he shifted to follow me. All of a sudden, I was in a tactical environment I didn't fully expect. I went from a bored participant to an eager player in an instant.

2) But watch out for gotcha powers. One might be cool, but you don't want the players shellshocked.

3) Do a battle that's all minions. It's a blast dropping like 20 bad guys that can actually hurt you back.

4) If you're good at skill challenges, run one. If not, avoid them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know if it will win any converts, but as far as introducing the game to newbies, 4Ed's system of making 1st level spells/powers available to 1st level PCs, 3rd level powers to 3rd level PCs, etc. is MUCH more intuitive a system than in any previous edition of the game.

No more questions of "Why can't my 3rd level Wizard cast 3rd level spells again?"

 

[Aus_Snow]

Something about this situation amuses me. So I gotta do it. The sales pitch that I will never make. . . might go something a little like this:

1. The classes are more balanced.

2. Skill challenges make skill use frequently more flexible and more interesting than that old single die roll.

3. The DM shouldn't have to spend as much time on book-keeping tasks, and therefore has more resources available for 'the good stuff'.

4. The system doesn't totally break down at high levels.

5. Because of the universal 'powers' system, members of all classes can at least do something useful or cool at any time.

6. There's no ability- and save-boost items assumed for each tier of play.

7. Combat is less 'swingy', so some random critical is far less likely to simply kill you.

8. Likewise, there's no save or die, so some spell or spell-like ability isn't going to just make you dead, let alone only because you happened to roll a 1.

9. Similarly, save or suck is drastically reduced. You can generally keep making saving throws to escape from an enchantment, transmutation-type effect, etc.

10. Uh. . .


Help me out here (if you're so inclined). What should #10 be?