D&D 5E (2014) 4th edition minions in 5th?

[pemerton]

If that were true, the minions would need to have poor offenses, too.

Why?

 

[SirAntoine]

Why?

Unless minions are illusions of some kind, they don't get their offenses skills from thin air. Only by being a tough combatant can they get them.

 

[Paraxis]

Unless minions are illusions of some kind, they don't get their offenses skills from thin air. Only by being a tough combatant can they get them.

I don't think you understand the conceit of minions as they are in 4e, there were a ton of level 28 minions in the darksun book if I remember right, and plenty of them 20+ throughout all the books. They hit hard and had good defenses, the point of them was by giving them 1 hit point each you could use multiple tough opponents in big set piece fights that were sure to go down in one hit, so you didn't have to keep track of hit points on them.

It was about their role in the fight, if the the same monster was encounter a few levels lower and leading a group of bad guys he could be stated up as a solo boss monster.

In the worlds of 4e, it was not about simulating reality or consistency it was about what was fun. Problem is for some people simulation of reality and consistency is part of the fun.

I guess an easy way to think of minions as any other monster with the following added.
Weakness: (Minion) this creature takes +1,000 damage when attacked by player characters who are equal to or higher in level than it's CR.

Because it is not like a level 28 minion dragon in 4e, would stub his toe and explode. Minion status was there to represent that he was easy to dispatch by team hero.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I've considerable experience with 4E minions, hordes as swarms, and 13th Age style roll-over damage mechanics. I like them all, but they have their own uses. 13th Age style is probably the most useful since it's an easy to remember rule that can be applied as needed. Kit-bashing monsters is relatively painless in 5E, but you don't generally want to be improving it when the group goes off the rails chasing gobo raiders when you expected them to take on the wizard's tower.

Hordes as swarms are useful IF you're dealing with hordes and mass combat situations. Given them area of effect attacks is the way to go as originally suggested. They also work great as allied units or cohorts under PC control. "All right, men, onward to glory!"

4E minions work best for filling out an encounter with a smattering of troops that complicate the tactical situation. They serve as mobile roadblocks, harry the back line, dash off for reinforcements, or even do cool stuff like explode or turn into pools of deadly acid when killed.

Most of these uses can be served by existed low-level baddies. If you want to add more to an encounter make their hp 1 and drop their static damage by a few points and put in two or three times as many.

In 4E I loved giving minions abilities that activated with combat advantage (like double damage, debuffs or automatic damage). It really made them dangerous in swarms or with clever positioning. The party was encouraged to deal with them before they could get into flanks. Made things tense and heroic at the same time.

For 5E, with the advantage mechanics at play, I'd probably just give them automatic hits or double damage (without attack advantage) on a hit as a general rule. One of the best things about minions as a DM is resolving their turns quickly with little or no thought. Rolling fistfuls of d20s kinda ruins the point.

 

[pemerton]

In the worlds of 4e, it was not about simulating reality or consistency it was about what was fun. Problem is for some people simulation of reality and consistency is part of the fun.

I don't think I really agree with this. It is part of reality that a single sword blow can kill, after all! So there is nothing unrealistic about (say) an ogre or a giant being killed by the first blow, rather than the 6th. (Unless you imagine each of the five earlier blows weakening its "life force" - but that is not very realistic either, as in real life there is no such thing as "life force" that gets worn down by attacks that otherwise cause no physical debilitation.)

I guess an easy way to think of minions as any other monster with the following added.
Weakness: (Minion) this creature takes +1,000 damage when attacked by player characters who are equal to or higher in level than it's CR.

Yes. This is what I described upthread when I said that minions have an "unluck" token attached to them. They are the ones who get no hit point buffer to reflect skill, good-fortune, etc.

Because it is not like a level 28 minion dragon in 4e, would stub his toe and explode.

AD&D and B/X, and perhaps to a slightly lesser extent 3E and 5e, have plenty of ordinary people with 1 hp. They don't explode either if they stub their toes. D&D has no mechanics (other than ad hoc adjudication) for representing the pain and temporary debilitation that can come from stubbing or breaking a toe.

 

[SirAntoine]

Paraxis was right on about 4e being unrealistic. It doesn't need to be. Just look at minions as illusions if it bothers you, though. The players will assume they are illusions anyway when they die in one hit.

 

[pemerton]

The players will assume they are illusions anyway when they die in one hit.

Which players?

The people I play with have played Rolemaster - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow - and RuneQuest - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow - and D&D - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow (eg a kobold hit by a 1st level fighter with 18 STR; an ogre hit by a 10th level ranger wielding a two-handed sword; etc).

They are also familiar with action and fantasy films, in which enemies sometimes die from a single blow. And they are familiar with real life, in which sometimes people, even very strong and healthy people, die from a single blow.

There is no connection between minions and illusions.

 

[SirAntoine]

Which players?

The people I play with have played Rolemaster - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow - and RuneQuest - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow - and D&D - in which sometimes enemies die from a single blow (eg a kobold hit by a 1st level fighter with 18 STR; an ogre hit by a 10th level ranger wielding a two-handed sword; etc).

They are also familiar with action and fantasy films, in which enemies sometimes die from a single blow. And they are familiar with real life, in which sometimes people, even very strong and healthy people, die from a single blow.

There is no connection between minions and illusions.

The players of D&D, of course. In this case, the players in a campaign where minions are used.

 

[SirAntoine]

The minions will still reduce immersion if they are too common. Most bosses will have real subordinates, and these are the rank and file foes which heroes fight. In other words, make some real minions to go along with the illusionary ones that have 1 hit point.

 

[mamol]

I liked the concept of minions in 4th edition, because they just reflect in the game what happens so often in fantasy literature and movies. There are the standard enemies that are just knocked out by a single blow (or even several enemies taken out by one blow) that you could call minions, in 5th this would be a goblin (assuming higher level players). There are the tougher ones who are a threat to the heroes, maybe a bugbear. Above those creatures we have the real tough ones and the heroes have to fight together and help each other to defeat those enemies (ogres, giants, dragons).
Of course, everything depends on level, and when the characters reach 15th level (just guessing), a bugbear might turn into a minion they just knock out while approaching the real threat.