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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9400369" data-attributes="member: 93670">Had to use a shovel to dig down pretty far there.&nbsp; Not designing PC abilities to be explicitly adversarial in their nature is an extremely low bar and I was talking specifically about the game rules.&nbsp; As to the second stab at the influence action that is not an effort to productively advocate for the GM so much as finding that they were rejected in their initial effort to steamroll the GM by wasting time &quot;play testing&quot; a rule that would have left no s deep into the upper ends of the ability score cap helpless putty im the hands of low level charisma based&nbsp; PCs with expertise persuade .&nbsp; The first one was an absolute failure to advocate for the GM and that becomes immediately obvious at first glance if you do much as spend the briefest of moments considering what the resulting optimized PC capabilities against plausible npc capabilities.I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure that this is the thread where wotc's gold standard happy go lucky ultra unoptimized&nbsp; PC builds was raised.&nbsp; That might be the norm in wotc's deliberately sabotaged builds, but it's a vanishingly small segment of players and very much not the best that the game should be designed around.&nbsp; We would have two or only one version of a l reasonable rule had they been proactively advocating for the gm rather than following upon the only PCs grit efforts at testing the water to see what could slip through</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9400369, member: 93670"] Had to use a shovel to dig down pretty far there. Not designing PC abilities to be explicitly adversarial in their nature is an extremely low bar and I was talking specifically about the game rules. As to the [B]second[/B] stab at the influence action that is not an effort to productively advocate for the GM so much as finding that they were rejected in their initial effort to steamroll the GM by wasting time "play [I]testing[/I]" a rule that would have left no s deep into the upper ends of the ability score cap helpless putty im the hands of low level charisma based PCs with expertise persuade . The first one was an absolute failure to advocate for the GM and that becomes immediately obvious at first glance if you do much as spend the briefest of moments considering what the resulting optimized PC capabilities against plausible npc capabilities. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure that this is the thread where wotc's gold standard happy go lucky ultra unoptimized PC builds was raised. That might be the norm in wotc's deliberately sabotaged builds, but it's a vanishingly small segment of players and very much not the best that the game should be designed around. We would have two or only one version of a l reasonable rule had they been proactively advocating for the gm rather than following upon the only PCs grit efforts at testing the water to see what could slip through [/QUOTE]

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