5' step, partial actions and haste

[KarinsDad]

Well, in no way am I stating that I have the most reasonable asnwer. I am only trying to state the rules as written.

Well, I must be missing something since the only rule I see that even comes close is the MEA 5 foot step one.

And since there is no definitive rule on it, I cannot see why people are persisting that these similarly related rules must make it go one way or the other.

Let's take a totally unrelated example:

Cure Light Wounds is (harmless). So, when casting it on an unconscious character, you do not give them a Will save.

But, Inflict Light Wounds is not (harmless). So, when casting it on a disabled undead (say a Vampire below 0 hits), you do, by the literal interpretation of the rules, give it a Will save to be only healed up half. But, do you really do that in the game, or do you just have him healed up, just like an unconscious PC with a Cure spell?

The point is that the rules do not and cannot take all things into consideration. In this case, they did not state that Inflict Wounds spells are (harmless) if cast on undead.

When the rules are not crystal clear, as a DM, you do the best you can.

The rules are not crystal clear with regard to Haste. It's fairly obvious that the designers never took the details of an extra partial action into account. Otherwise, they would have been more explicit. So, each DM has to do the best he can based on his understanding of other rules.

Artoomis thinks that using the MEA rule makes the most sense. I think that the MEA rule does not take Haste into account at all, so I think the Expertise and Power Attack things reset between actions rules make more sense.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Artoomis]

Well, here I go....

Arty, I agree that the rules as written don't allow for an additional 5' step during haste because they do imply that you only get one a round.

BUT

I don't think the designers took haste into account when those rules were written. There are other places where there are rules that don't say "except in this case" or even just say "it's almost always this way" or even just a little "usually" when it should have such wording.

It really just doesn't make sense to NOT allow a 5' step because, as I keep repeating, your arms shouldn't be the only thing that's moving faster when you are hasted.

--Weak-Willed Spikey

Hmmm.... Of course, you are overlooking that a 5-foot step is not part of combat movement. In fact, it only hapopens if you take no combat moevement.

Thinking of it that way, I don't see why an extra partial action should change it.

Logically, though, if you do want to allow an extra 5-foot step for Haste, then aren't you on thin ice to deny one for extra fast movement, or extra large steps like a dragon or a giant? In both cases it certainly "makes sense" from any viewpoint except the one that says a 5-foot step is not part of combat movement.

So I agree with you, partially (you know, like a "partial action.)"

 

[Artoomis]

Well, I must be missing something since the only rule I see that even comes close is the MEA 5 foot step one.

One more time, with feeling (and all in one place):

Glossary entry for a 5-foot move:

A small position adjustment that does not count as movement...This movement does not draw an attack of opportunity

Page 117:

If your entire move for the round [emphaisis added] is 5 feet (a 5-foot step), enemies do not get attacks of opportunity for you moving.

Page 121:

If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more move-equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during or after the action.

Taken together, this looks pretty definitive to me. Unless you want Haste to be redefining the round - in which case, you win this argument hand down, no question. If you redifine what a "round" is then I have no case at all.

Cure Light Wounds is (harmless). So, when casting it on an unconscious character, you do not give them a Will save.

But, Inflict Light Wounds is not (harmless). So, when casting it on a disabled undead (say a Vampire below 0 hits), you do, by the literal interpretation of the rules, give it a Will save to be only healed up half. But, do you really do that in the game, or do you just have him healed up, just like an unconscious PC with a Cure spell?

The point is that the rules do not and cannot take all things into consideration. In this case, they did not state that Inflict Wounds spells are (harmless) if cast on undead.

Bad example, actually - other rules on Saving Throws make it clear that no saving throw is needed in this example. Nonetheless, I take your point. It just doesn't appply here.

When the rules are not crystal clear, as a DM, you do the best you can.

The rules are not crystal clear with regard to Haste. It's fairly obvious that the designers never took the details of an extra partial action into account. Otherwise, they would have been more explicit. So, each DM has to do the best he can based on his understanding of other rules.

Artoomis thinks that using the MEA rule makes the most sense. I think that the MEA rule does not take Haste into account at all, so I think the Expertise and Power Attack things reset between actions rules make more sense.

Different strokes for different folks.

Actually, the rules are clear. Now, if you think Haste causes an exception to the clear rule, then by all means make an exception for your group. D&D rules are meant to be used that way. My goal is simply to point out what the rules are, and then let you go about things as you will.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

Sent this question off to the Sage this morning. Problem solved (assuming he responds).

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Hmmm.... Of course, you are overlooking that a 5-foot step is not part of combat movement. In fact, it only hapopens if you take no combat moevement.

Thinking of it that way, I don't see why an extra partial action should change it.

What does that have to do with anything that I said? I agree that it's not a normal move. I agree totally. That's WHY I think you should get one. Because it is something that you are doing at the same time you do something else.

--Lost Spikey

 

[Artoomis]

What does that have to do with anything that I said? I agree that it's not a normal move. I agree totally. That's WHY I think you should get one. Because it is something that you are doing at the same time you do something else.

--Lost Spikey

We just see the round differently, I think. I see a "round" as about six seconds during which you take all your actions, and, by the way, you only get one 5-foot step per round, which includes anything in a round, including the extra partial attack from Haste.

You, I think, see the extra action from Haste as a bigger exception than I do, an exception that allows a 5-foot step.

I have no problem with that at all - except that the rules don't support it. By all means go that way if you like, though. That's part of what this game is all about - going your own direction.

If nothing else, this whole thread can be summed up in one phrase:

"Haste is Broken."

 

[SpikeyFreak]

"Haste is Broken."

Look - we agree again.

--10th Page Spikey

 

[Artoomis]

Look - we agree again.

--10th Page Spikey

Well, of course. Who'd have thought otherwise?

 

[Junkheap]

Yea, from what i gather from the last 9 pages is that we see "a round" defined differently. I think when you are hasted you are albe to do 9sec or work in 6 sec. And that is a round. A round is always 6 sec. Haste doesn't change that. It just gives you an extra partial action in within that 6 sec. That's the way i always saw it and never thought otherwise.

I also now see the other side of the argument, but then im my mind haste is too powerfull a spell for third level. To most of you i see an extra 5 foot step is not a big deal. But to me, it is a big deal. Not in the fact that it is just 5 feet, but it just benefits a spellcaster way too much. Sure it can help other classes, but i see arcane casters benefiting from it most(since they can cast the spell).

Also i don't understand some of the arguements here like spikeys.

Are you saying that you can take 2 5 foot steps in a round but then somehow get an AOO if provoked due to the second step?
If so, then you consider the partial action form haste to be another round. BUT in that round you can make a 5 foot step without provoking, if all you do is take a 5 foot step. That is if you do define haste as another round. I probably all wrong in reading you spkey, sorry.

Anyway sorry for the long post, but able to complete 9 sec in 6 seconds is the way i see haste. Making it a round.

 

[dcollins]

So...has anyone asked the Sage this question?... I'll send it to him, but I know some of you get quicker resonpses than I do.

Sent this question off to the Sage this morning. Problem solved (assuming he responds).

This debate is no longer about what the Sage rules. As was pointed out on the very first page of this thread, the Sage has ruled both ways at different times in the past -- most recently to the "no, only one 5 ft. step per round" side.