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5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6888850" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Let me see if I understand you right. I can't reconcile your two complaints: one, that you get odd creatures; with two, too little xp.</p><p></p><p>I would have assumed (and bear with me; you have MUCH more experience in this) the problem was the action economy. </p><p></p><p>If your goal is simply to have the monster last longer you give it more xp. If your goal is simply to have the monster be more threatening you give it more and stronger attacks. </p><p></p><p>Both these cases increase CR, and... so what? </p><p></p><p>If you want to properly threaten a level X party (where X is above the fragile first levels; so let's say X=5 or X=10) with a single creature you need to throw a CR X+5 or X*2 creature at them.</p><p></p><p>So... your problem is... that you're using the standard xp award rules for that?</p><p></p><p>I mean, let's take a Behir. It's a fairly non-complicated CR 11 creature. It's got reasonable AC and HP for its CR, and no super-strange attack forms (that a lower-leveled party would be powerless against). I think it works as an epic Solo encounter for a level 6 or so party (assuming a reasonable level of both build and play optimizing). And by "epic" I mean "way beyond Deadly, but still doable".</p><p></p><p>As my party levels up, I'm learning more about whether a good formula is APL+5 or if it's more like APLx2. </p><p></p><p>And obviously I understand that once you're past CR 20, there really are a) very few monsters to choose from, and b) that the higher the CR, the more the monster underperforms. That problem I see.</p><p></p><p>But I don't really see the problem you are talking about now... unless you're sole issue is that of xp awards. That a sky-high CR gives too much xp?</p><p></p><p>But I really must confess I don't see the xp rules as enough of a reason to bring elites and solos (and all the baggage that comes along with it) into 5th edition. </p><p></p><p>I mean, I don't use xp and I don't use CR (except to eyeball a monster's stat block). </p><p></p><p>Can't you fix this by saying something like "when the DM deems it necessary a monster gives half xp"? And then use that to have higher-CR monsters as Elites and Solos? (Combined with a sprinkling of the legendary framework, the actions/resistance) With none of the hard work?</p><p></p><p>I mean, your work on Epic Monsters is great. I just wish you'd see that the main issue (at least for me) is how the designers have underestimated the need for every CR 20ish monster to have a "bag of tricks", and to fix that, without getting sidetracked with completely new Challenge Rating data tables or 4th edition rule additions. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Good luck anyway you slice it!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 6888850, member: 12731"] Let me see if I understand you right. I can't reconcile your two complaints: one, that you get odd creatures; with two, too little xp. I would have assumed (and bear with me; you have MUCH more experience in this) the problem was the action economy. If your goal is simply to have the monster last longer you give it more xp. If your goal is simply to have the monster be more threatening you give it more and stronger attacks. Both these cases increase CR, and... so what? If you want to properly threaten a level X party (where X is above the fragile first levels; so let's say X=5 or X=10) with a single creature you need to throw a CR X+5 or X*2 creature at them. So... your problem is... that you're using the standard xp award rules for that? I mean, let's take a Behir. It's a fairly non-complicated CR 11 creature. It's got reasonable AC and HP for its CR, and no super-strange attack forms (that a lower-leveled party would be powerless against). I think it works as an epic Solo encounter for a level 6 or so party (assuming a reasonable level of both build and play optimizing). And by "epic" I mean "way beyond Deadly, but still doable". As my party levels up, I'm learning more about whether a good formula is APL+5 or if it's more like APLx2. And obviously I understand that once you're past CR 20, there really are a) very few monsters to choose from, and b) that the higher the CR, the more the monster underperforms. That problem I see. But I don't really see the problem you are talking about now... unless you're sole issue is that of xp awards. That a sky-high CR gives too much xp? But I really must confess I don't see the xp rules as enough of a reason to bring elites and solos (and all the baggage that comes along with it) into 5th edition. I mean, I don't use xp and I don't use CR (except to eyeball a monster's stat block). Can't you fix this by saying something like "when the DM deems it necessary a monster gives half xp"? And then use that to have higher-CR monsters as Elites and Solos? (Combined with a sprinkling of the legendary framework, the actions/resistance) With none of the hard work? I mean, your work on Epic Monsters is great. I just wish you'd see that the main issue (at least for me) is how the designers have underestimated the need for every CR 20ish monster to have a "bag of tricks", and to fix that, without getting sidetracked with completely new Challenge Rating data tables or 4th edition rule additions. :) Good luck anyway you slice it! [/QUOTE]
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