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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6888944" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>By "bag of tricks" I merely mean that each epic stat block needs to show evidence of at least minimum awareness of its designer that he or she understands what a high-level party can do.</p><p></p><p>To just take a single trivial example. Any monster that relies on melee damage but can only simply run up to the players to deliver this damage is completely shut down by repellant eldritch blast (not sure on name).</p><p></p><p>If the monster wasn't epic, this wouldn't be an issue. No harm done in a cantrip shutting down an Ogre, for instance (regardless of level). </p><p></p><p>If it is only encountered in groups, it isn't an issue. But the MM doesn't contain such information - there's no indication (except the "legendary" status) which foes can and should be the basis of elites and solos. A pretty good start, however, is to ensure no legendary monsters have such a weakness (unless it's explicitly deliberate).</p><p></p><p>Compare to Forcecage or Wall of Force. To me it's far more okay that a big stupid brute (a really big one, like CR 20 big) is shut down with spells like these than with a mere <em>cantrip</em>. Yes, I know that in both cases what really is shutting down the monster is the action of a high level hero, but still.</p><p></p><p>That's just one example. The point is to ensure each epic monster has at least <em>some</em> tools in its toolbox, and this is what I meant by "bag of tricks". One trick is "get to melee". Other tricks that have evolved thru the editions include blindsight. We could make a long list.</p><p></p><p>You can't take these things for granted. Unfortunately, that is. The way the MM is written we're forced to question the system mastery of its designers. And possibly to fill gaps ourselves (this is where this thread comes in! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> )</p><p></p><p>Do note I am <strong>not</strong> advocating standard bag of tricks. Each legendary or epic monster can and should have an individual if not unique trick! That's an important part in the look and feel of their encounter. (Standard tricks only mean the adventurers can and will anticipate them, abuse them and shut them down)</p><p></p><p>The goal isn't to make the monster or its tricks invincible or unsurmountable.</p><p></p><p>The goal is to make the players <em>work</em> for their victory; to try different tactics, and to adapt to what works and doesn't work. </p><p></p><p>Just Repellant Blasting each big bruiser might seem like an innovative solution on first blush, but it really grows old fast. I want (and you want) more from high CR stat blocks!</p><p></p><p>For instance, take Juiblex, a demon prince of oozes. Things that show care and attention (IMHO) would be to include abilities to ooze out of any non-epic prison (not even a Wall of Force is that ooze-tight?), and some way to quickly appear in the adventurer's midst (it is NOT okay to trivially kite a demon prince like he was your ordinary black pudding). </p><p></p><p>Zapp</p><p></p><p>PS. Perhaps a long reply, but do note I was just trying to be clear about "bag of tricks". I really shouldn't have rambled on this long, since it's only a minor issue here. Feel free to focus your reply (when you have time to write it) on the main question: namely what goals are you pursuing?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 6888944, member: 12731"] By "bag of tricks" I merely mean that each epic stat block needs to show evidence of at least minimum awareness of its designer that he or she understands what a high-level party can do. To just take a single trivial example. Any monster that relies on melee damage but can only simply run up to the players to deliver this damage is completely shut down by repellant eldritch blast (not sure on name). If the monster wasn't epic, this wouldn't be an issue. No harm done in a cantrip shutting down an Ogre, for instance (regardless of level). If it is only encountered in groups, it isn't an issue. But the MM doesn't contain such information - there's no indication (except the "legendary" status) which foes can and should be the basis of elites and solos. A pretty good start, however, is to ensure no legendary monsters have such a weakness (unless it's explicitly deliberate). Compare to Forcecage or Wall of Force. To me it's far more okay that a big stupid brute (a really big one, like CR 20 big) is shut down with spells like these than with a mere [I]cantrip[/I]. Yes, I know that in both cases what really is shutting down the monster is the action of a high level hero, but still. That's just one example. The point is to ensure each epic monster has at least [I]some[/I] tools in its toolbox, and this is what I meant by "bag of tricks". One trick is "get to melee". Other tricks that have evolved thru the editions include blindsight. We could make a long list. You can't take these things for granted. Unfortunately, that is. The way the MM is written we're forced to question the system mastery of its designers. And possibly to fill gaps ourselves (this is where this thread comes in! :) ) Do note I am [B]not[/B] advocating standard bag of tricks. Each legendary or epic monster can and should have an individual if not unique trick! That's an important part in the look and feel of their encounter. (Standard tricks only mean the adventurers can and will anticipate them, abuse them and shut them down) The goal isn't to make the monster or its tricks invincible or unsurmountable. The goal is to make the players [I]work[/I] for their victory; to try different tactics, and to adapt to what works and doesn't work. Just Repellant Blasting each big bruiser might seem like an innovative solution on first blush, but it really grows old fast. I want (and you want) more from high CR stat blocks! For instance, take Juiblex, a demon prince of oozes. Things that show care and attention (IMHO) would be to include abilities to ooze out of any non-epic prison (not even a Wall of Force is that ooze-tight?), and some way to quickly appear in the adventurer's midst (it is NOT okay to trivially kite a demon prince like he was your ordinary black pudding). Zapp PS. Perhaps a long reply, but do note I was just trying to be clear about "bag of tricks". I really shouldn't have rambled on this long, since it's only a minor issue here. Feel free to focus your reply (when you have time to write it) on the main question: namely what goals are you pursuing? [/QUOTE]
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